Talk:Association football

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Former featured articleAssociation football is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 20, 2006.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 10, 2006Featured article candidatePromoted
October 15, 2007Featured article reviewKept
June 11, 2022Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article

Soccer[edit]

It’s called soccer. Please revert title. 2600:4040:2F63:8600:E921:14B4:EABA:9771 (talk) 18:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's called soccer in the USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa, and a few other English peaking countries where another strong code (or codes) captured the name "football" first. It's football in the other English speaking countries. The official English name is "Association football". HiLo48 (talk) 00:01, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is not and will never be such thing as a "official English name" of anything 149.154.222.99 (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Read the FAQ mate 2402:800:629C:E333:BC46:3E23:9CB1:DCAD (talk) 15:11, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article is written in British English, though? Soccer is a seldom used nickname with humorous connotation in British English. Therefore, should the article not reflect that while paying heed to the diversity of names used in all other languages? SteadyJames (talk) 08:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Being written in British English isn't the same as being written from a British perspective. The article's perspective is global, not British. However, it does mean that once introduced, the sport can be called simply "football" in most mentions, unless it ambiguous in a particular sentence. BilCat (talk) 08:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So why can't those differing perspectives be shown, especially as they are so contested in the case of the word soccer. In italy, it's called Calcio; in Hungary it's Labdarúgás. Both also call it Football. Likewise, it would take a strange person to dislike the use of soccer in all circumstance, but the majority of the English speaking world do not recognize it as more than a nickname. Therefore, in those places, it is true that it is a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 09:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, 'nickname' literally means 'alternative name' SteadyJames (talk) 09:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's NOT a nickname. That's been made patently clear to you on your Talk page. I will keep reverting every time you change an article to say that it is. Your editing has become very disruptive. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, if there is a dispute, let's discuss it here with references before it is edited. I'm new to Wikipedia and just getting to grips with the established processes and requirements necessary before edits are made, but it is my understanding that opinion or opinions do not constitute evidence.
I will start with a dictionary definition of the word nickname.
From Merriam Webster Online (accessed 11 February 2023).
Nickname (one of two)
1
a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2
a familiar form of a proper name (as of a person or a city)
Because the accepted and universal full name of the sport in question is Association football, soccer is thus defined by the above as a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 11:33, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, "soccer" is a nickname for association football. "Football" isn't, though, it's just dropping the word "association". – PeeJay 14:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. 'Soccer' is a nickname for Association football; 'football' in this context is both the shortened and the general name for association football and for all codes of football respectively. I will go ahead and make the edits. As I am new to editing on Wikipedia i presume that this course of is ok now that my proposal has been met with support? SteadyJames (talk) 19:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is nonsense. Soccer is used as the official name of the sport in North America, and by many clubs in Australia. This covers a majority of the world's native English speakers. An official name can NEVER be accurately described as a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 01:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Soccer” isn’t the official name for the sport anywhere, it’s just the name the governing bodies in those countries use for the sport officially known as association football. – PeeJay 21:31, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who determines what a country's official name for the sport is? If it's the highest laws of the land, then in the U.S., "soccer" is used in 21 USC 387a-1 and in several state codes (e.g. WAC 296-17A-6809 for Washington); same in Canada. Soccer is the most common name and de facto official in several English-speaking nations, so calling it a nickname is wrong. SounderBruce 22:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Australia many clubs use the word "soccer" in their formal names. For legal reasons all these clubs would be registered with the relevant federal government body as businesses, using those names. That's about as official as you can get. It's simply NOT a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 01:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the official name should be as defined in the sport’s official ruling documents. According to football's original and current Laws of the Game (1863 and 2022), the sport is defined as just "football". There for, it can be argued that if an official name should be required, it would most likely be just ‘football’. As far as I am aware, the game is played by the same rules--or at least by rules derived from yet still in principle the same--in the USA,? SteadyJames (talk) 08:50, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's called football. You people are ridiculous. Fifa. No s. Stupid Americans 78.86.130.228 (talk) 20:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus to label soccer as a nickname, and you should not be making changes during an active discussion based on one user's agreement. It is the most common name for the sport in certain regions of the world. Plenty of articles on other concepts and terms (e.g. trunk/boot, sneaker/trainer/tennis shoes, diaper/nappy) are written in one variant of English without having to denigrate other variants by classifying them as nicknames. SounderBruce 20:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that consensus requires more than one corroborative post, I am still unaware as to exactly how quorum is reached. I'll try to learn more before my next edit. However, I disagree that defining something as a nickname in anyway denigrates a word or it's use. As you can see from my previous post that includes a dictionary definition for "nickname", soccer clearly fit the perimeter more than adequately. In fact, using that definition it s hard to capable soccer as anything but a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 21:00, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also think that the word soccer cannot be considered a mere nickname, because official governing bodies affiliated with FIFA such as the Canadian Soccer Association and the United States Soccer Federation use it in their names. Besides, Football Australia and New Zealand Football only changed their name to remove soccer and include football recently. It's unusual for official entities to use words considered as nicknames in their titles. TLSOSLT (talk) 15:55, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would say thet the use of the nickname soccer in any "official capacity" (whatever that might or could mean in relation to a sport) is erroneous when the name is and always has been stated as "football" in the Laws of the Game (1863 and editions thereafter). Governing bodies in North America and Australasia were originally known by the "Football Association" with the name of the nation as a prefix etc. only to then include soccer in efforts to differentiate and promote the sport in competitive markets dominated by subsequent codes--its marketing. The fact Australia and New Zealand have corrected their erroneous uses of the word soccer only further supports the fact that it is a nickname. However, beyond the Laws... it's difficult to understand fully what "official" might or could mean in relation to a sport--it's not like FIFA hand out fines for marketing mishaps and rule-bending is it? It would be rather petty to try an outlaw a nickname, after all. SteadyJames (talk) 09:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly have no idea what has happened in Australia, and are ignoring what others tell you. You're talking garbage. Please stop now. HiLo48 (talk) 09:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We appear to clearly be talking the difference not between "nicknames", but of formal and informal WP:COMMONNAMES for the same subject. Koncorde (talk) 11:46, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The specific reverted edit in question here defined soccer as a nickname, which in the English speaking world is largely correct. In this context--and as i understand the guidance provided by wikipedia--soccer nor Association football--from which soccer is extracted as a diminutive nickname--can be considered as the most commonly used name for the sport; however, both are--for various reasons--used at different times and with varying frequency to refer to the sport in question here.
Furthermore, the word 'soccer' fits the definition of a nickname as defined in the dictionary definition shared above in this thread (Merriam-Webster Online, accessed 11 February 2023), in that it is, in differing measures, both:
"
1: a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2: a familiar form of a proper name
"
Soccer's use as a nickname is accurate in relation to 'Association football' from which it is directly derived, and indirectly to 'football' as 'football' is defined in the Laws of the Game (1863 to 2022). The Laws of the Game are applicable in all jurisdictions. SteadyJames (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Except "in the English speaking world" is largely not correct. And the COMMONNAME of the article is different to other popular usages. In this article for instance we are required to differentiate from a multitude of other football games - per the article at Football where Association Football does not hold a universal monopoly. The description of it as a nickname is functionally not accurate as it is formally known as soccer in other areas of the English speaking globe whereas just as football does in the UK, whereas specifically in the UK soccer has retained a form of informal basis. Trying to parse which is the primary usage is why both are referenced equally. This has nothing to do with WP:OR from the Laws of the Game, jurisdictions etc. as that is not an authoritative source on popular usage. Koncorde (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain with citations how ““in the English speaking world" is largely not correct.” The name for the sport in Africa and South Asia is Football.
I understand the common name for Association football to be Football as referenced above. Please let me know if you are referring to a Wikipedia-specific definition used for editing when typing "COMMONNAME".
There is no problem using the nickname soccer when differentiating between codes. Indeed, this is where nicknames like soccer are most useful. No one is claiming that Association Football is the only code of football nor that it holds a monopoly--such arguments here are straw man fallacies within this discussion and, without evidence, should be dropped.
As pointed out further up in this thread by another editor, it is perhaps not relevant to discuss formal and informal distinctions of word usage here; we are talking about the definition of what is a nickname and whether soccer is a nickname for football. A dictionary definition for 'nickname' has been posted twice in this thread already without a direct reply—I’m not sure what more I can do to encourage its inclusion in the discussion. Yet, if reference is needed in relation to the real name(s) or common name for the sport, The Laws of the Game (1863 and thereafter) should be considered a primary source—they remain the highest and perhaps the only authority on the matter; the Laws… name the sport as football. The name defined in the Laws is commensurate with the sport's most popular name in the English-speaking world (see links to football in Africa and South Asia above), and in most other languages too (via a loan, direct translation, transliteration or a combination of these). Indeed, even US Soccer’s own webpage on the Laws... links directly to the IFAB pdf without translation: this document, of course, calls the game football. This would seem to reflect a parent-child relationship between US Soccer and the institutions of world football, not least the IFAB in their capacity as the custodians of the game. As an extension, because the retroactively applied name of “Association football” adds clarity to this system of nomenclature, it’s accurately used as a long name when distinguishing between football and other less popular codes. Likewise, there is no challenge to the use of the diminutive nickname soccer, which is thereafter derived from Association football, to help distinguish between codes of football. This discussion remains on whether or not soccer is a nickname for football.
The use of ‘soccer’ does not hold an informal bias in the UK, it is a seldom used nickname there that—as in other regions—is used by those associated with other codes to differentiate from Association football; it is also occasionally used in a humorous way, sometimes in the media.
The proliferation of different codes of football demanded new ways to differentiate from their progenitor—by this point known somewhat/semi-officially as Association Football after its most prominent codifying body, the Football Association. However, the newer codes under development by independent clubs and codifying bodies were considered by those involved with them as codes of football and thus maintained the use of the world football in their naming. For instance, this naming protocol remains true of rugby players today who, irrespective of their code, are often still called rugby footballers or just footballers. However, in common use, the latter definition is seldom used when talking about Rugby footballers and Association football players in general because of the confusion it causes, In these instances, players of Association football are known as just footballers, while those playing Ruby are more generally known as rugby players or by related terms.
As the proliferation of football codes solidified into the development of apparently completely separate sports, alternative terms and words were developed to differentiate between these codes. As mentioned above this began with the simple addition of relevant prefixes, such as ‘Association’, ‘Rugby’, and later ‘American’ before the word football. Based on this initial nomenclature, children playing the games in English Public Schools developed simplified, diminutive nicknames to differentiate between the codes of Rugby and Football. Among these new nicknames were soccer and rugger—both of which remain in consistent use by the minority of pupils in England that attend Public Schools. And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad. SteadyJames (talk) 08:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Soccer is not a "nickname" in the USA, it IS the name of the sport - therefore asserting it is the nickname is not accurate in the same way claiming Australian Rules Football being called "Football" in Australia is not a nickname there either - it's just the name. I stopped reading at that point because you started waffling. Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Soccer" is a nickname in the USA, just like "football" is a nickname in the UK for the sport of association football. Anything other than "association football" is a nickname. Those nicknames might appear in the names of governing bodies, but that doesn't mean they're not nicknames. I have a government/official name; among one group of friends I have one nickname, and among another group I have another nickname; that doesn't make either nickname my actual name, nor does the use of one nickname among one group stop the other nickname from being a nickname. – PeeJay 22:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's is inaccurate. We do not define "nicknames" on wikipedia by their differentiation from another word - but on what reliable sources describe them as. Football is Soccer in the USA, Canada and Australia hence the usage of those terms in those countries. In contrast Football is the primary name of the sport in England other countries. This is why every single article on English wikipedia for footballers biographies pipes "Association Football" to "Footballer" or "Soccer" dependent upon their country of origin. I'll keep linking to WP:COMMONNAME and its subsidiaries such as WP:UEIA which are clear we list alternatives as known without using diminishing terms such as "nickname" when they are popular or common names elsewhere "Beijing also known by the nickname Peking". Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The argument posited is not debating whether or not the popular name for Association football in some geographic locations is soccer--that is patently obvious via the know usage of the word. The argument is that, for the majority in the english speaking world, soccer is just a nickname. It is incorrect to assume that a nickname is a pejorative term (certainly not when using the dictionary definition supplied); likewise, it is erroneous to assume that alternative names for things cannot also be used or considered--as is often the case--as the preferred name for something. Indeed, as with the use of soccer, nicknames prove very useful when differentiating between codes of football. However, being a preferred name for something does not mean that it is not or cannot also be a nickname; it is a false dichotomy to assume so.
On naming conventions from WP:UEIA
"Whenever something else is demonstrably more common in reliable sources for English as a whole, and this is not a question of national varieties of English, use that instead."
One final point: you have used the phrase "alternative name" to describe soccer's use. Nickname is a more efficient way of saying "alternative name". SteadyJames (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting perspective, but it doesn't really fit into the spirit of what we describe in Nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 02:13, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by "sprit" of the word nickname? We have a cited dictionary definition for the word that should be considered primary here. SteadyJames (talk) 11:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have? YOU might have. I haven't seen it. I'll bet it's cherry picked. This is simple. Nicknames almost always refer to names for people, not sport. Adding that word to this article is unnecessary, and seems primarily driven by your desire to prove that those of us who have ALWAYS known it as soccer are wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care who's right and who's wrong. I want clarity, Here's the definitions of nickname with discussion points relating to the word 'soccer' for a third time...
"The word 'soccer' fits the definition of a nickname as defined in the dictionary definition shared above in this thread (Merriam-Webster Online, accessed 11 February 2023), in that it is, in differing measures, both:
"
1: a usually descriptive name given instead of or in addition to the one belonging to a person, place, or thing
2: a familiar form of a proper name
"" SteadyJames (talk) 07:55, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite hilarious that you use an American dictionary definition to justify what you claim is British English usage. Sorry. That just doesn't work. HiLo48 (talk) 08:01, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
are we not talking about global usage of the word on it's own terms? I used the Webster dictionary because I was told british english does not extend to british definitions of words and their use. The OED is the principal historic dictionary for the english language in totality but is behind a paywall,so here's the Collins' British english definition:
"
Nickname
COUNTABLE NOUN
A nickname is an informal name for someone or something.
Synonyms: pet name, label, diminutive, epithet
VERB
If you nickname someone or something, you give them an informal name.
(Collins English dictionary, Online https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/nickname (accessed: 18/02/2023)
"
Again, looks pretty accurate to me, and especially so for the majority of english speaker. Maybe you can offer some sources in support of your own opinion? SteadyJames (talk) 08:30, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, post 1863 the Laws..., the only consistency in nomenclature has been the use of the noun 'football' as the sport's given name. Association football was retroactively applied as a necessary long name needed for clarification following the subsequent codification of rugby football and other football codes. It is from Association football that the diminutive nickname soccer is derived. Pertinantly both association football and soccer are absent from IFAB literature. SteadyJames (talk) 11:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Australian rules football was codified in 1859, BEFORE soccer. It has naturally been known as football ever since in the areas where it is played. Other forms required more specific names right from their arrival in the country. So soccer was never known as football, or association football, in Australia until its national body began to try claim the name 20 years ago. And rather than following international conventions, that change was more driven by a desire to try to change the poor image of the game in Australia. Many clubs are still officially soccer clubs. In Australia, soccer is the primary name. Here is an example from a club close to where I live. Please follow that link, and tell me they are using the word "soccer" as a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 21:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a straw man. I am not and have not debated the fact that the codification of australian rules football happened before that of association football. This isn't even relevant because it wasn't the first football code either. It's a red herring.
The original name for the governing body for association football in Australia was actually ""Commonwealth Football Association". This body was then superseded by the Australian Soccer Football Association, which was formed in 1921" (Football Australia wikipedia page).
Just because clubs or even football associations use the nickname soccer alongside association football to distinguish it from other codes does not change the face it is a nickname (please see dictionary definition posted twice on this talk page and referenced several further times herein. Nor does the use of the nickname soccer as the preferred term for association football in specific geographies change the fact that the majority of the english speaking world use it infrequently as a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 07:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Liar. It's NOT the majority of the English speaking world. And that club I linked to DOES NOT use the nickname soccer alongside association football. It uses ONLY :soccer". In a way that's obviously NOT a nickname. HiLo48 (talk) 08:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, are the citations used to build the wiki pages I have referenced also lying too? This page is concerned with Association football as defined in the Laws... if those clubs that use the nickname soccer in their titles are playing by the same rules, they are playing association football as defined in the Laws... if you continue to throw around unfounded allegation I'm going to have to ignore you and report you. SteadyJames (talk) 09:45, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All I know is that the word "soccer" may have originated as a nickname, but languages change over time, and today, "soccer" is the most common and even official name for football in some countries, as others have pointed out with evidence. I think that calling the word a nickname in the article would be biased towards certain regions and against the idea of "representing a worldwide view of the subject". Besides, in my opinion, the terms used in the official rulings of a sport should always be mentioned and preferred if possible, but that's not always possible, because sometimes other terms are more popular or even official in another capacity, like "soccer". "Penalty shootout" is a similar case. The Laws of the Game refer to it only as "kicks from the penalty mark", but "penalty shootout" is more common, and that's why both terms are used on Wikipedia articles, with preference to the latter because it's much more prevalent. TLSOSLT (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my reply above to points on:
-official names in sport and what we are discussing in this thread.
-representing a worldwide view.. with reference to football in Africa and football in South Asia
I agree, when common naming or nicknames are more popular than codified terms defined in the Laws... then they should be included for clarity on the Wikipedia page. This is true of the useful nickname 'soccer'. However, such inclusion does not change the fact that they are nicknames. For instance, if there is a sub-page on penalty taking in Association football, it might be useful to the reader to define exactly how that part of the game is codified with the use of relevant terms from the Laws... and then expand the explanation thereafter on the different circumstance in which the game proceeds with penalties, and perhaps even some resulting implications. SteadyJames (talk) 08:23, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. HiLo48 (talk) 10:13, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you should try to engage with the substance of the discussion before writing it off? Or, if you feel unable to proceed, say nothing? SteadyJames (talk) 13:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I and many other editors have tried to engage with you on this matter, many, many times. You are ignoring the bits we say that you don't like, and that refute the points you make, over and over again. You ae even lying about things. Your minor edit above made a sentence say "And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad." That is simply wrong. You have been told it's wrong many times. So, please read Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. And follow that advice. HiLo48 (talk) 22:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Without actually counting, I think there are about 5 editors that have contributed to this discussion--that in no way represents "many" in any form of the english language.
Rather than ignore anything, I have in reality, replied to every point raised in opposition and have done so in good faith in a civil manner, often with references, as requested. The same cannot be said for those opposed to the reverted edits, in your case you seem to be projecting your own faults onto others: I have provided a dictionary definition for the disputed noun 'nickname', no one--not least you--has offered a reason why it does not fit the definition other citing your own opinion that it is incorrect without any justification--referenced or otherwise.
In regards to:
"And although the use of the nickname soccer gained some wider use in the media thought the 20th century, it has never rivalled the use of the name football by those most involved with the game in the UK and abroad."
Look at the Laws.. nowhere does it mention soccer. Its football. All FIFA members recognise football. none recognise only soccer.
Further, in regards to differentiating between codes in the UK:
"By the 20th century, rugby football was more commonly called rugby, while association football had earned the right to be known as just plain football."
(Encyclopedia Britannica Online, Accessed 16/02/2023). Furthermore, in his celebrated social history of football "The ball is round" (2006:) David Goldblatt does not mention the use of the nickname 'soccer' very much--if at all. The ball is round is a brilliant and authoritative read on the history of football with mention of other codes too. It's highly recommended.
Please do try to reply using reason and with cited sources. SteadyJames (talk) 16:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't go by the "Laws of the game", and the quoted Britannica article very blatantly states "No longer just a nickname, soccer had stuck" even if we were to use it as any kind of authoritative source. Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that the Laws... are not relevant to this page? thats crazy if so, and completely contradictory to all the separate discussions on this talk page. Surely consistency is paramount?
The operative word in the quote that you use is "just". In this context "not just" mean not limited to; ie inclusive of but with additional values and attributes, that remain undefined in the article. Indeed, the only thing this quote highlights is that soccer remains a nickname--surely you can see that,right? It's just basic logic. SteadyJames (talk) 11:22, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "just" is a very important word. It means it isn't "just" a nickname but has become something else with the article explaining how it had become the primary usage in the US and elsewhere. Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you agree that it is a nickname, then? The mental gymnastics here are insane. SteadyJames (talk) 08:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
'We don't go by the "Laws of the game"': whatever was meant by this, at least two editions of this document are used many times as references, and multiple terms used therein appear in the article, such as "goal line", "field", "match officials", "kicks from the penalty mark", etc. So that statement is not entirely true. It is true, however, that the "Laws of the Game" cannot be used to decide what the sport itself is called, or whether word X is a nickname or not, because regional linguistic differences need to be respected. Regardless, this whole discussion is going nowhere. Saying that association football is "more commonly known as football or soccer" is concise, accurate, and it doesn't need changing. TLSOSLT (talk) 20:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The "Laws of the game" are not the authoritative source on whether or not "soccer" is a commonly used word, and in some countries the primary term. Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The last thing I have to say on this matter is that the first sentence of the lead in the article's current version is really good and shouldn't be changed. TLSOSLT (talk) 16:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't good because soccer isn't a common name for football . Just because it is the preferred name used in your geography doesn't make it so elsewhere. SteadyJames (talk) 08:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are two related issues here: 1. under what circumstance are the Laws... the authority on the sport known commonly in the english speaking world (see referenced wiki pages of football in the english speaking world) in the Laws... themselves as football? How have you choses when or if the Laws.. are and are not applicable to the accuracy of this page? Please can you supply cited justification or logic beyond 'it is my opinion that..'.
2. What is the definition of the word nickname and how does it apply to the use of the word 'soccer' in relation to football in english speaking world? Please attempt to refute that the definition of the word 'nickname' (as posted here and referenced several times in this thread) does not adequately describe the nickname 'soccer' and its relationship to football, in particular association football. Please use more than just opinion. SteadyJames (talk) 07:19, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How can the name that was used almost exclusively for the game in Australia until this century be described as a nickname? And you lie. The sport is NOT commonly known in the English speaking world as football. A majority of English speakers call it soccer. Now, this has been pointed out to you before, yet you persist with the lie. Why? HiLo48 (talk) 07:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
there is no need for misplaced accusations. I have used references to demonstrate how the english speaking world calls it football, not by the nickname soccer. Please take a look at those referenced postes in this thread and respond with more than just 'I think' replies. SteadyJames (talk) 07:38, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. You're lying. HiLo48 (talk) 08:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, here are the references used to prove that the majority of the english speaking world don't call it 'soccer'. Football in Africa; South Asian Football federation. Here are a few others for good measure:Football in Asia; Football in India. Although I'm clearly not a lier it does appear that you only see what you wish to see. SteadyJames (talk) 08:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't sources, they are wikipedia articles, and it is somewhat odd to claim Africa, South Asia and Asia as "English speaking". Koncorde (talk) 10:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those wikipedia pages are sourced, though. Heres a list of which countries use football or soccer: https://www.topendsports.com/sport/soccer/sport-name.htm you will see most english speaking cvountires use football. as you can see, only a small handful use exclusively soccer.
Where I am from, it is common knowledge that large parts of Africa and most of South Asia are considered part of the English speaking world--do you really need me to provide references for that? Here's the wiki page for South Asia. languages of South Asia. I can provide other sources, but is that really necessary? It a bit like demanding citations for saying that Canada is English speaking. SteadyJames (talk) 16:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now I know you're trolling. The English-speaking world is not a list of languages on a webpage that mentions it once or twice, but a group of countries where English is the primary speaking language of the majority of the population - or an otherwise official language. The argument is not that Football (or linguistic variations thereof) isn't used by a lot of countries but that soccer is specifically used by several prominent specifically English speaking countries (which is mentioned at the top of said web page). Blatant WP:NOTHERE going on. Koncorde (talk) 18:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If by troll you mean someone that disagrees with you.
India alone has 125 million native speakers of English. Hindi and English and the two official languages of India. indeed, the page you linked to says as much. Then there’s Pakistan, Nigeria, Kenya etc etc. all are apart of the english speaking world. Or are they the wrong kind of native English speakers, if you know what I mean? The jigs up, mate. Please start to use references in reply or just accept that your don’t know what you’re talking about and allow the edit to stand. Soccer is a nickname. SteadyJames (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
‘Football’ is the global term for football. The other codes, which are all excellent in their own right, mostly have a different word attached to them (E.g. Gaelic Football, American Football, Australian Rules Football). Rugby and Rugby League don’t even have football in their names.
it is unfair to them to lump them with a word already in use. They deserve the names they’ve earned.
‘Soccer’ as a word is being used by fewer and fewer people. It is slowly dying. Ananab Skywalker (talk) 20:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As Soccer is used universally by US, Australia and they have their own codes of "Football" that they know as "Football", this is both an inaccurate claim and implausible opinion. Koncorde (talk) 13:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As an Australian, I can assure you this is not true. Football participation is greater than double the other codes in Australia. The most prevalent other code is called Australian (or Aussie) Rules.
(source: https://www.clearinghouseforsport.gov.au/research/ausplay/results).
The argument you are using is redundant. Ananab Skywalker (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never mentioned about participation, and by your own source: "Australian Football", "Touch Football" and "Football/soccer" are listed in addition to the already established fact we know from numerous reliable sources that your opinion is demonstrably wrong. Koncorde (talk) 01:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just use Football (Soccer)? 49.190.249.131 (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I like your suggestion. It's cleaner and more obvious than using the broadly redundant and seldom used 'Association Football', although I'd argue that ..(Soccer') is mostly redundant too. Unfortunately, there are some rather stubborn editors that are intransigent on the topic. I've used third-party data and internal and external sources to try and reason with them, but even though it is demonstrably true that the vast majority of the English-speaking world simply calls the game 'Football', the evidence apparently isn't enough. They argue that because there are minority sports that also use the name 'Football' for codes popular in relatively isolated pockets of the world. It's very odd indeed. I think it's actually more about power than truth, which is sad. SteadyJames (talk) 13:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The title should be football. Nobody, absolutely nobody calls it association football. This is such a crude and artificial "official name". This is the most loved sport in the world. Call it by its real name: football. And of course it should not be balled soccer. America should adapt to the world, not the world to America. 2A02:3032:30C:C298:1336:4FF5:E5B:9550 (talk) 17:02, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't forget to hate Australia too. HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you could try engaging with the discussion dispassionately, that would be really helpful. Your irrational dislike of the term "soccer" notwithstanding, in the absence of a universally acceptable common name for the subject, the "official" name will have to suffice. – PeeJay 22:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Soccer is categorically a diminutive nickname in most on the English speaking world used to refer to the game. Association Football was retrospectively used to and is not the accepted full name of the sport. Simply football is the most common name and—going by the weight of professional opinion—the name for the sport used by the vast majority of national and international associations/federations that govern the sport around the world. The limited number of national federations that use soccer in their title are still member of FIFA and use the official laws of the game which refer to the game as only football. The evidence is clear. Continued preference for the use of soccer here in parity to or above that of simply football and/or association football is made in the face of the truth of the matter—the game is called football. SteadyJames (talk) 08:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't seem to realise that FIFA, standing for Fédération internationale de football association, translates directly to 'International Association Football Federation'. HiLo48 (talk) 11:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly do realise what FIFA stands for, but I don’t understand why it’s relevant to this discussion. SteadyJames (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Becasue you seem to think it's important that all the member associations are part of the "Association Football Federation", i.e. the world body of people who play Association football. HiLo48 (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The vast majority of FIFA member countries do call the game football. Those that don’t implicitly acknowledge that the name football because they uphold the laws of the game, which only refer to the sport as football. It’s extremely plain. SteadyJames (talk) 18:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why does FIFA call it Association Football? HiLo48 (talk) 23:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add weight to that question, check here. FIFA refers to the sport as association football on every single national association's page. "[Fooland Football Association] is the governing body of association football in [Fooland]" appears on every single page, even the ones that more informally call the sport soccer. – PeeJay 00:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, even the continental confederation for North America calls it association football in their very name. Looking into what CONCACAF stands for should be quite enlightening for SteadyJames. – PeeJay 00:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t understand your point? I’m not suggesting the name isn’t association football. Please can you clarify? SteadyJames (talk) 04:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SteadyJames: What the hell are you talking about? You've made a completely unsubstantiated statement, and also completely misunderstood the way things are documented. – PeeJay 15:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which point do you need to be substantiated? Which documents have I misunderstood? SteadyJames (talk) 18:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PeeJay spends a lot of time telling people they’re wrong, or that their comments / views are unsubstantiated.
You, SteadyJames, are 100% right. The weight of evidence sits exclusively with football, and not any other word. 65.181.12.1 (talk) 18:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to know a lot about me for someone who's made two edits on Wikipedia. Yet another unsubstantiated claim too. Very special. – PeeJay 01:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that "association football" is some kind of neologism could certainly do with a source to back it up, not to mention your assertion that it's not the sport's full name. – PeeJay 01:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s a strawman. I haven’t suggested that Association Football isn’t the games accepted full name. Whether it is a neologism depends on how you might use that word, but—again—I haven’t made that claim either way. However, because the name of the sport has only ever been listed as ‘Football’ in the laws of the game (since 1863), it’s fair to assume that it has always been referred to as simply ‘football’ by those involved with the rules. Explicitly: those that write and maintain the rules and/or the majority of those that use them, and by extension the majority of the general population in English speaking world. I haven’t argued that other names aren’t used to described and refer to the game on occasion and in specific geographies. Indeed, nicknames—such as soccer, footie etc—are in use to varying extents in some populations, but football is by far the most common popular name for the game in the English speaking world. SteadyJames (talk) 18:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Soccer" is NOT a nickname. Please stop describing it as such. HiLo48 (talk) 23:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think you should be gatekeeping the English language. Soccer is clearly a nickname that is most frequently used in specific geographies to refer to association football, most usually when there are other codes of football that are more popular. SteadyJames (talk) 04:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not MY gatekeeping. Our Nickname article says they are "commonly used to express affection, amusement, a character trait or defamation of character". That is clearly not the case in those countries and clubs that use the name soccer. They are just using the most common name for the sport in those places. HiLo48 (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You could at least post the whole description used on that page. The first sentence—which you have omitted—is a clearer definition. SteadyJames (talk) 07:03, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to remove the pipelinking of Association football in the Men's & Women's FIFA World Cup pages, but was unsuccessful. GoodDay (talk) 02:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to suggest to other editors here that SteadyJames is no longer adding anything useful to discussion here, and it has clearly become time to ignore him. HiLo48 (talk) 09:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded. Koncorde (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The most popular sport on the globe is called football in almost all other languages, everyone around the globe will know what sport you mean when you say football,futbol,fotbol,futebol,voetbal,fodbold, except for the English speaking countries outside the UK, the second F in FIFA stands for football, its called FOOTBALL because you play the sport with your foot. I really don't care about the opinions of a bunch of Aussies and Americans. 143.176.246.244 (talk) 06:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And the "A" in "FIFA" stands for "Association", therefore it's "Association football". And it's not just played with your foot. The ball can be touched with any part of the body other than the hands, and goalies can use their hands. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is like saying in tennis the ball is played with the hands. Associate football is retrospectively applied to the game known by those involved with it as football, as defined by the rules of the game. SteadyJames (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2023[edit]

contact = Limited change it to Full and add references beside contact [1] 80.233.39.116 (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Blogs are not reliable sources. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:26, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite obvious that football is a contact sport. However, the distinction between "limited" and "full" is not defined in general by the Laws of the Game, which only define what is prohibited for this code of football (as other codes--such as the Rugbys and Australian rules etc--only prohibit specific types of contact relevant to those other games). Therefore, I propose football is defined here as "a contact sport" and nothing more.
For instance, from section '2. Indirect free kick'
"If the ball is within playing distance, the player may be fairly charged by an opponent." indication the legality of contact in the sport.
For further definition of the limits of permitted contact in football. see sections "3. Disciplinary action". (Both sections are found under Fouls and Misconduct in the current Laws of the Game, hosted on TheIFAB.com). SteadyJames (talk) 14:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://jobsinfootball.com/blog/basics/is-soccer-a-contact-sport/
The definition of "Limited Contact" just doesn't exist at all outside of a few niche references, and I'm suspicious as to whether they have based their webpages on wikipedia in the first place. The Contact Sport wikipedia page being used as a reference point seems entirely constructed of opinion. It's a lot of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH that started out kind of defining contact sport as a subject - and now has branched into speculative subcategorising. Koncorde (talk) 16:03, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the wiki page is in doubt the why not just remove the link altogether? Despite this temporary workaround, football is a contact sport as defined by the laws of the game and so should be defined as such here. SteadyJames (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a link to a reputable source- the Professional Football Scouts Association (PFSA)
https://thepfsa.co.uk/is-football-a-contact-sport/
If in doubt, just check the Law of The Game, which clearly permit full contact. SteadyJames (talk) 22:12, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't removed the link because I am researching the actual context of the words used to ensure we have reliable sources to support those assertions and their original source for the meaning which the source you have provided actually cites: https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/contact+sport "the term contact sport has been divided into full contact (collision), semi-contact, limited contact, and non-contact sports". If this is indeed the case and there has been some subdivision, it is obviously preferable to see whether their statement has merit, mentions the broad number of sports in question and so on rather than us just making our own minds up. Absent such reliable sources you will likely end up in an edit war on the Contact Sport page. Koncorde (talk) 23:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an actual reliable source indicating the specific categories, and a list of sports that qualify for those categories: Study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5851127/ Table of definitions: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5851127/table/table2-1758573217728290/?report=objectonly with the original source being the American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Sports Medicine which is about as significant definition as you are likely to get (far above an unsourced blog on the PFSA page). Currently trying to identify original source. Appears to be the journal Pediatrics from 1988 May; 81(5):737-9. Summary is here https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/81/5/737/55191/Recommendations-for-Participation-in-Competitive?redirectedFrom=PDF but not the full article as Journal is paywalled, but gives something to look for with other articles that will have referenced it. Koncorde (talk) 23:48, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed the reference in the infobox to "yes" to match the outline of Template:Infobox sport rather than confuse matters of stating it's "Contact: Contact" or similar. Any further discussion on definitions of contact sport should take place at the Contact sport article where I have started to rebuild it based upon the reliable source of the AAP mentioned above. Koncorde (talk) 15:22, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds appropriate. SteadyJames (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 June 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW and contradicts WP:NCSP. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 01:12, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– These are soccer players, not "soccer", just like Zinchenko is called Oleksandr Zinchenko (footballer), and not Oleksandr Zinchenko (football).

I know it will take a while to update Category:American soccer players, but I've started by RMing the appropriate USMNT players. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 15:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • This isn't the right place to suggest such moves. I would also suggest that the premise of the move request is ill-founded. In my experience, most biographical articles are disambiguated (where necessary) by the field the person works/worked in, not their occupation within that field. American football players use "American football", rugby union players use "rugby union", etc. – PeeJay 16:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all. The issue should be discussed at WP:NCSP first, if at all; "(soccer)" is nice and short while getting the point across. SounderBruce 19:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:CONCISE and WP:NCSP. Unnecessary. No reasonable person will read these titles as Matt Turner, who is a soccer, which is nonsensical, but rather as Matt Turner, who plays soccer. Station1 (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. WP:NCSP is a well-established naming convention; a better place to start would be WT:Naming conventions (sportspeople). 162 etc. (talk) 22:08, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:NCSP. Start a discussion at WT:FOOTY if you want to change the standard disambiguation from (soccer) to (soccer player), but this would also then need an RFC to change. Listing 4 random people at a talkpage that isn't any of their articles isn't going to get these moved. Joseph2302 (talk) 07:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FIFA vs IFAB[edit]

A chance to be aggressively British (and informative and truthful). I think the IFAB vs FIFA relationship has been poorly defined. In effect (My interpretation) football is not governed by FIFA, but by IFAB. FIFA is the executive and judicial branch, with the asterix that the Swiss courts and the international Court of Arbitration for Sports also has something to do with it. But the legislative branch is clearly the IFAB, although then 50% of the IFAB votes are with FIFA. IS this interesting, relevant in the context of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.70.212.10 (talk) 03:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2023[edit]

Add Futbol boots to equipement 70.25.127.82 (talk) 14:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:18, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2023[edit]

Change "The word soccer arrived at its final form in 1895" to "The word soccer arrived at its current form in 1895". We do not know that language will not continue to evolve so "final" does not seem right. All we know is the current form is soccer. 2604:3D09:A481:FE00:49A0:AE2C:8F44:F58D (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done WanderingMorpheme 01:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Intl. competitions[edit]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_club_(association_football)

first word using "clubs" in titled section, must be linked to upper page (created last year!?) 93.140.44.36 (talk) 18:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: English 102 Section 5[edit]

This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 3 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): RJB379 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Toniesledz, MalachiWhitmore24, Mariahlynae, ADeng102, Hoopmixtape1911.

— Assignment last updated by ADeng102 (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2024[edit]

−
| caption = The attacking player (No. 10) attempts to kick the ball beyond the opposing team's [[goalkeeper (association football)|goalkeeper]], between the goalposts, and beneath the crossbar (not shown) to score a [[Goal (sports)#Association football|goal]].
+
| caption = The attacking player (No. 10) attempts to kick the ball into the net behind the opposing team's [[goalkeeper (association football)|goalkeeper]] (here wearing red and yellow) to score a [[Goal (sports)#Association football|goal]].

A reader coming in with no knowledge of football will have no idea what goalposts or crossbars are, or which person in the photo is the goalkeeper—and the current caption makes no attempt to explain any of that (or in the case of crossbars, even show it). On the other hand, I would imagine most people already know what a net is, which will help them understand the ultimate purpose of the game. 2603:8001:4542:28FB:A51C:FA7A:6445:53B1 (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2024 (UTC) (Send talk messages here)[reply]

 Done DrowssapSMM 19:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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