Talk:Jordan River

Category

Regarding Category:Rivers of Syria - strictly speaking, the Jordan River is not a river of Syria, as no part of it passes through Syria. It is relevant to the geography of Syria, though, since the international border of Syria with Palestine/Israel (since 1923) is 50m East of the river at parts, and the demilitarized zone between Syria and Israel from 1948 to 1967 included parts of the river. If there is no objection, I will revert back to Category:Geography of Syria.--Doron 22:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:01, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As the Yarmouk river is a major tributary to this river and the banias river comes from Golan Heights who the united nations and most of the world agree that it is a syrian occupied territory, I believe the latest revision by me is the most accurate. I would like to thank you Doron for the good modifications earlier. I say do not revert. 129.130.15.91 01:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The sentence in question refers to the Northern Jordan, not its tributaries. It is clearly specified that the sources are in Lebanon and the Golan Heights, but the Northern Jordan itself is within the boundaries of Israel according to the 1923 international border between the British Mandate of Palestine and the French Mandate of Syria. The border is delineated 50 meters east of the river. During the 1948 Israeli-Arab war, Syria advanced to the bank of the Jordan (and crossed it in a few points), and the area it occupied remained a demilitarized zone according to the armistice agreement until 1967. During this period, the Jordan river became the de facto border between Syria and Israel, though no other country (as far as I know) recognizes this change of borders. The 1923 border (which, includes the whole of the Northern Jordan River within Israel) is widely recognized.--Doron 08:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Name of article should be "River Jordan"

In the English language, this river is known as 'the River Jordan', and the article name should reflect that. Why is it called Jordan River instead? — Nicholas (reply) @ 22:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That's true afaik. Maybe Americans call it the Jordan River? 86.134.138.38 (talk) 17:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

“the River Jordan” is a religious imposition on language based in religious syntax. This is an unbiased public article about a geographical river, not an article centered around Judeo-Christian jargon. LissanX (talk) 22:21, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

@Nickshanks and LissanX: Nickshanks is right, LissanX is wrong: 'River X' is the BE standard, not any "Judeo-Christian jargon" (see River Thames, River Bourne, River Avon, etc). We might decide to lead a discussion on whether BE or AE should have priority, but based on facts, not on individual sympathy or antypathy toward this or that "jargon". Stay healthy, Arminden (talk) 16:08, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Pop culture/trivia section?

I stumbled across this page while prepping to write Jordan River Dam, which is in Jordan River, British Columbia, which other than being named for it has little to do with the river in the Holy Land (unless there's surfing in Galilee). But after a quick browse of the page I gotta wonder if there shouldn't be a section on pop culture, or at least a mention of the more famous spirituals, e.g. Michael Row Your Boat Ashore, We shall gather at the river and so on......I think you'll find the equivalents on Missouri River and Mississippi River, maybe the Rhine.Skookum1 (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The river referred to in the song 'Old Man River' is not the Jordan, but the Mississippi, as that's where the action takes place. Vibeshifter (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Substitute the song 'Without A Song' for 'Old Man River' as the Vincent Youman's tune references the Jordan river. Vibeshifter (talk) 00:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Not the Great Rift Valley

The Jordan River flows in the Jordan River Valley. The Great Rift Valley is in East Africa. Moreover, most geologists consider the geologic feature which runs through the Jordan River Valley to be a transform fault, not a rift or ridge. And they do not refer to it as the "Jordan" fault or rift, but the Dead Sea Transform (DST) or Rift. It has some extensional features, but in general, it manifests left lateral motion between the African Plate and the Arabian Plate. Tmangray (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is the Palestine mentioned on the map

Just saying. It's because of political reasons incorrect to not mention Palestine on the map. And there is no source of the map even. You could assume that on some Israeli maps Palestine could be ignored but that should explicitly be said somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.239.104.158 (talk) 14:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Which sources have been used to state that the Jordan Valley, which belongs to Area C of the West Bank, belongs to Israel? This statement clearly violates the Neutral Point of View, ignoring international agreements on such a sensitive issue, the predominant opinion of the international community and the area neighbouring countries, and above all the point of view of the Palestinian National Authority. --Capucine8 (talk) 15:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's try to be neutral about naming countries

Describing the course the river takes:

• Israel gets mentioned.
• Jordan gets mentioned.
• Palestine does not get mentioned.
• Syria does not get mentioned.

I addressed this and changed references from "West Bank" (per the U.N., a part of Palestine) and "Golan" (per the U.N. and all States bar Israel, part of Syria) and was told it was not neutral. The river winds its way along the internationally recognised territories (occupied or not) of all these States. It is not neutral to refuse to use the names of some of them. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:54, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Despite the UN view, it is taking sides to assume that the West Bank automatically equals Palestine, or that Syria borders the river. I don't see a compelling need to further politicize this article. The existing wording avoids having to do that. Hertz1888 (talk) 01:44, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Mentioning Israel and not Palestine is neutral? Saying that the West Bank is Palestine is “taking sides”, while saying that its part of Israel is not “taking sides”? The vast majority of the Jordan River runs along the West Bank, with only a small fraction peaking out near the Sea of Galilee, which is the only part along the entire river considered to be part of Israel. If you simply want to use this article as a vehicle to promote a personal political agenda of annexing the West Bank into a new greater Israeli territory and pretend that internationally recognized borders, established georgraphical regions and universally accepted boundaries should just simply be rejected because they’re not what you want, then sorry but that’s ridiculous and not what this article is for. You might as well just jump ahead to the next step and claim the Jordan River is not part of Jordan either and is entirely within Israel. This article should list ALL related, countries and territories, Jordan, Palestine, Israel and Syria, not just the one that promotes your biased personal wants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LissanX (talk • contribs) 22:48, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

I should like to note that in the summary box at top right of the article there is a reference to a "State of Palestine", which links to a description about a "de jure State of Palestine". This is inaccurate and tendentious. There is a de jure Palestinian Authority and I highly recommend that this description and linked paragraph are amended accordingly. Dori1951 (talk) 12:43, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Hebrew and Arabic names

It seems a little odd that the Hebrew names are consistently listed before the Arabic names for a river named after an Arab country. In fact, they were originally listed that way but seem to have been arbitrarily swapped in February 2006. What gives? Skadowski (talk) 13:35, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Skadowski (talk · contribs), Late response, but the country was named after the river (the country was originally "Transjordan" (i.e., beyond the Jordan). Note I have started a discussion section on the order below. --Erp (talk) 02:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Danno uk : Why have you deleted the {citation needed| tags

Danno uk : Why have you deleted the {citation needed| tags. The Diff page

your reason:"Reverted 2 edits by Ykantor (talk): Rather than removing citations and then repeatedly claiming "this is a mistake", it would be better to correct the "mistakes" with supporting references of your."

According to this logic, every {citation needed tag} should be removed immediately, since "it would be better to correct the "mistakes" with supporting references of your." ? So, what for Wikipedia is using this tag?

Will you please un-delete the tags? Ykantor (talk) 19:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

BTW no citations were removed. What is the source for your claim? Ykantor (talk) 05:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

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Order of river name in different languages

Given the slow edit war going on between DanielaAlonso2 (talk · contribs) and Icewhiz (talk · contribs)/a number of IP accounts it is probably a good idea to discuss what order the river names should be in here. For reference I note that Britannica uses Arabic than Hebrew. --Erp (talk) 02:47, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

one option is to follow the List of country names in various languages practice and alphabetize by name/transliterated name. This leads to the Ancient Greek version first whether Hebrew or Arabic comes next depends whether we include the word (Nahr/Nahar) meaning river or not; I'm inclined to not include. We should really have a transliteration for the Syriac. --Erp (talk) 03:11, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

• I reverted once, and am unconnected to the IPs - please strike your assertion. The Hebrew form predates Arabic, Syriac, and Greek. The upper part of the river is entirely in Israel (both sides), and on the bottom stretch Israel controls one side of the river. Hence, Hebrew should come first.Icewhiz (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

• • Your points are simply false. You cannot name a river's based on what language predates what, nor should you base it on who controls a territory which is internationally known as disputed territory. Moreover, lets say I follow your infantile based logic; the rivers name is originally in Aramaic which predates the language you call Hebrew. Even a monkey would realize that your edits are coming from your personal preference and other goals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanielaAlonso2 (talk • contribs) 01:36, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

I guess we may be back to discussing order. I'll first note that Hebrew probably predates Aramaic in the area of the Jordan river (admittedly as closely related languages both descended from a common ancestor neither is older than the other). Arabic and Hebrew are the major languages spoken in the adjacent lands now so are the only real contenders for the first and second spots after the English name. --Erp (talk) 04:58, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Tributaries: is "unreferenced section" tag needed?

ALL the listed tributaries have their own WP articles, with plenty of details & sources! Arminden (talk) 18:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Explain Declivity in Etymology section

As per MOS:JARGON, and in the interest of the geographic importance of this article, could someone with edit rights on this page please add the parenthetic explanations `(downward slope)` after the technical geographic term `declivity`. Artemgy (talk) 09:14, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hi, please add a link by changing

Geography

The Jordan River has an upper course from its sources to the Sea of Galilee, and a lower course south of the Sea of Galilee down to the Dead Sea. In traditional terminology, the upper course (or most of it) is commonly referred to as passing through the "Hula Valley", as opposed to "Upper Jordan Valley"; the Sea of Galilee through which the river passes is a separate entity; and the term Jordan Valley is reserved for the lower course, fed by the Yarmouk and Zarqa Rivers.

Over its upper course (fed by the Hasbani River, Banias River, Dan River, and the Iyyon Stream), the river drops rapidly in a 75-kilometre (47 mi) run to the once large and swampy Lake Hula, which is slightly above sea level. Exiting the now much-diminished lake, it goes through an even steeper drop over the 25 kilometres (16 mi) down to the Sea of Galilee, which it enters at its northern end. The Jordan deposits much of the silt it is carrying within the lake, which it leaves again near its southern tip.

into

Geography

The Jordan River has an upper course from its sources to the Sea of Galilee, and a lower course south of the Sea of Galilee down to the Dead Sea. In traditional terminology, the upper course (or most of it) is commonly referred to as passing through the "Hula Valley", as opposed to "Upper Jordan Valley"; the Sea of Galilee through which the river passes is a separate entity; and the term Jordan Valley is reserved for the lower course, fed by the Yarmouk and Zarqa Rivers.

Over its upper course (fed by the Hasbani River, Banias River, Dan River, and the Iyyon Stream), the river drops rapidly in a 75-kilometre (47 mi) run to the once large and swampy Lake Hula, which is slightly above sea level. Exiting the now much-diminished lake, it goes through an even steeper drop over the 25 kilometres (16 mi) down to the Sea of Galilee, which it enters at its northern end. The Jordan deposits much of the silt it is carrying within the lake, which it leaves again near its southern tip at Degania Dam.

(The change is at the very end,similar request for article Sea of Galilee, thx)
Mws.richter ⇔ bla, бла... 07:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Photo caption 1913 pic: RUSSIANS, no doubt whatsoever

The gross mistake from the Wiki Commons file has no place on an edited page. If anyone feels an urge to fight the obvious, please do go to the Wiki Commons talk-page. I have first made the correction on 1st May 2019, but in Sep. an anonymous editor mistook the "workig title" of the Wiki Commons file with a quotable "source" and reintroduced the double mistake - "Jordanian Christians". A) They're Russian, 100%. B) There were no "Jordanians" in 1913, just Ottoman Christian subjects from Southern Syria. Nobody identified them, nor did they self-identify, as Jordanians; not even as Transjordanians. Read up. Arminden (talk) 15:58, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree not "Jordanian". Not so sure about Russian, I'm not an expert, but, I suspect neither are you. The local Christians would probably have identified with their diocese or local city. I'm modifying to be more generic and to fit what the source states. --Erp (talk) 15:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Jordan River and Palestine

There is no country called Palestine. You state that the Jordan River borders the countries of Israel, Jordan, Syria and " Palestine". 70.27.248.208 (talk) 15:14, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 July 2021

Could you split this sentence?

The river holds major significance in Judaism and Christianity since the Bible says that the Israelites crossed it into the Promised Land and that Jesus of Nazareth was baptized by John the Baptist in it.

Maybe it could become

The river holds major significance in Judaism and Christianity.  According to the Bible, the Israelites crossed it into the Promised Land, and Jesus of Nazareth was baptized by John the Baptist in it.

It would just be a little less complex if the sentence were split in two, and replacing "The Bible says that...and that..." with a single source claim ("According to the Bible") means that you don't have to remember how the "and that" statement refers back to the Bible bit. 64.203.186.112 (talk) 14:49, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:52, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Supposed miracles

Since I cannot edit the page myself, I bring to your attention a piece of information that should/could be added in the section about the religious meaning.

According to the Eastern Orthodox Church, on the day of the Baptism of Jesus Epiphany, only in presence of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, a supposed miracle happens in the waters of the river, which reverses its flow.

A source is at this link.--Mickey (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Tributaries

I recently created Meshushim River. It falls into the Sea of Galilee. In he-wiki it is categorized as a tributary of the Jordan River. What is en-wiki's take on this? Loew Galitz (talk) 02:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Tricky. We have the basin of the Dead Sea whose main tributary (and the only one I think with a Wikipedia article) is the Jordan river (and in particular the lower course of said river). The lower course is fed by several streams and by the Sea of Galilee. The Sea of Galilee is in turn fed by several streams including the upper course of the Jordan river (which in turn has several tributaries) and the Meshushim River. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Rivers has had discussions over the years on how best to handle this (for instance Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Rivers/Archive_6#Discussion_about_tributary_and_basin_categories), but, nothing clear in the guidelines that I could see. As a first step I would probably treat the category Tributaries of the Jordan River as though it was a basin type category then have three subcategories, Tributaries of the upper Jordan River, Tributaries of the Sea of Galilee (or Sea of Galilee basin), Tributaries of the lower Jordan River then move the current rivers to the correct subcategory. Or we could rename Tributaries of the Jordan River to Dead Sea basin with the same subcategories but include Jordan river also (and also have it appear under the Sea of Galilee basin). Thoughts? --Erp (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 March 2023

Citation 1 (1] Klein, Ernest, A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English, The University of Haifa, Carta, Jerusalem, p. 264) brought to show the etymology of the Hebrew name ירדן to mean "to descend", does not mention the name of the river. Request for alternative source, or to scrap the given meaning entirely GabeMelvin (talk) 12:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 15:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Occupation

@Dovidroth: Why have you removed mention of the Golan Heights occupation and kept it for the West Bank? And why have you removed mention of the occupier, Israel? Your edits go against RS phrasing which use unequivocally "Israeli-occupied Golan Heights". [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:51, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I suspect because that bit of the infobox was using the physical geographical names, Mount Herman and the Golan Heights without mentioning the political states. I note that we might want to double check the source(s) of the Jordan and particular document why we have the coordinate we do, which is not very near Mount Herman. Britannica gives three principal sources: Ḥāṣbānī, Bāniyās, and Dan; the coordinate we have might be the meeting place. I note that Water politics in the Jordan River basin seems a bit clearer on the hydrology. Erp (talk) 15:00, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

@Erp: The mention wasn't removed just from infobox but also from lede. As for the coordinate, I have no idea why it points where it does, or where it should point. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:58, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I've adjusted the coordinate to be where the Dan and Hasbani rivers meet and become the Jordan. Also rewrote a bit about the sources. I added infoboxes to the articles on those two rivers. This is still a work in progress. Erp (talk) 03:55, 28 December 2023 (UTC)