Talk:Kohl (cosmetics)

Untitled

Is Surma as called in India and Pakistan, the arabic name of Kohl? IrfanAli 09:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The article says that the arabic name is kuḥūl. However, I've been told that the persian word "sormeh" refers to kohl. I have a farsi-english dictionary that defines sormeh as collyrium, and "sang-e sormeh" (sormeh stone) as crude antimony, which is an ingredient of kohl. -- Narge 12:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge proposal

This article seems to be about the same thing as Kajal and Sirma (see [1]). I propose merging them both to this article — kohl is the only word of the three that appears in my English dictionary. -- Narge 13:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Punjabi's, call it Sirma. We can mirage the article, and have the article say "also called Sirma" then we can redirect the Sirma link to Kohl what do you reckon? --StreetScholar 01:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I've merged the Sirma and Kajal article and give the sections sub headings --StreetScholar 12:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Pop Culture

The references given are questionable. Theda Bara & Mariska Veres are not the only famous women to use heavy kohl eyeliner or even particularly notable. Both are just two examples of a stylized look that has been considered fashionable throughout worldwide history including in the 1920's and again in the 1960's. What makes these two people significant to the use of kohl over thousands of other famous actresses and singers? Lacrimulae (talk) 07:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree with this. Many of the artists, to say nothing of mentions in lyrics, are not relevant. Also, it's weirdly Western Civilization biased. Many popular artists and personalities in Asia will surely mention or use kohl as part of their image, but it is not special because it's common in their cultures.

It might work better to frame this as cultural trends which involved heavy, non-standard use of kohl, plus the artists/characters who did build a persona around that (Prince and Jack Sparrow?). Silent film actresses in general, goth/dark rock musicians, etc. Elideb (talk) 23:58, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Antimony and Lead?

Kohl (Proto-Indo-European root K-h-l Biblical Hebrew Kahal ) Kohl. "blue" Kohl is a dark-bluish blck pigment composed of both lead-based compounds as well as a compound of antimony. The lead-based compounds in Kohl are: Galena (PbS) – dark grey and gloss Laurionite ( Pb(OH)Cl) – white Phosgenite (Pb2Cl2CO3)- Cerussite (PbCO3) – blue. The antimony-based compound in Kohl is Stibnite (Sb2S3) - blue. Stibnite has antimony (stibium). There is evidence that submicromolar concentrations of lead ( PB 2+) can elicit nitrous oxide production which in turn can trigger an enhancement of the immune response. Reference: Tapsoba et al http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ac902348g The ancient Egyptians, documented in the Ebers Papyrus (~ 1550 BCE, discuss these compounds within Kohl as protective for the eyes. Indeed Kohl was used an eyeliner and cosmetic. There are a number of endemic ocular disease in the Nile region including trachoma, a chlamydial organism which can cause corneal scarring and conjunctival cicatricial disease, with visual loss. Kohl was used not only as a cosmetic but also s a medicinal collyrium (from Gr. kollurion). Two ofKohl's lead compounds - the lead chlorides laurionite and phosgenite - were not natural to the Nile valley. It is believed they were intentionally synthesized by the ancient Egyptians for this purpose. The widespread use of Kohl across the Mediterraean and the Mid-east attests to its ability to protect the eye from infectious disease and be used as a cosmetic. Here is another well-written reference. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/bodyhorrors/2012/04/20/ophthalmology-of-the-pharaohs/

Vincent

I think the article needs some integration by someone who knows all about kohl (I don't!). First, the preparation section says nothing about galena, lead, or antimony, but makes it sound as if kohl is made from soot (if I read right). Then, the health concerns section talks about lead. Finally, nothing at all is said about antimony which, according to many other references, is an important part of some types of kohl. Mikeblyth (talk) 18:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)Mike Blyth

Your remark is entirely accurate and it expresses the problem with the lede and etymology section. We are told that kohl is from lead, then suddenly antimony is introduced as part of the etymology with no explanation of the connection. It is WEAK. 178.38.79.250 (talk) 17:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC) Please see my discussion above, about the chemical constituents of Kohl. Let me know if you wish more detail and references. Vincent

This is presumably a highly complex topic, only the surface of which is scratched in the present revision. Apparently use of "kohl" is attested in the Hebrew Bible, and possibly in ancient Egyptian sources (but from what period? Egyptological sources are needed). The entire point of "kohl" seems to have been the heavy-metal poisoning leading to dilated pupils (presumably in order to fake a "come hither" signal that could otherwise only be produced by advanced method acting, or by actual arousal), so either antimony or (later?) lead seems a crucial ingredient, even though the term can now just mean "dark makeup" and may just be (but is it?) the modern Arabic term for mascara. So, a discussion of the history of this is needed, when and where did they stop using heavy metals? Where do they still use them? --dab (𒁳) 12:43, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Approaching from a mineralogical perspective, I'd always heard of kohl being prepared from stibnite, which is natural (& impure) antimony sulphide. But there are enough similarities and solid solutions in all these semi-metal compounds that there are a lot of other minerals that would produce similar effects. Including the poisoning. Using galena/ lead sulphide would probably work, but the shininess of natural galena wouldn't make it a natural choice to prepare a black pigment, whereas stibnite is naturally dull black in most specimens. The true state of affairs is probably a lot less simple and clear cut than the article suggests. (With my reasonable amount of chemical knowledge, you wouldn't catch me using any of these mixtures. I try to avoid handling even my nice specimens of galena these days. I doubt I'd even try preparing such mixes without gloves and a dust mask.) Aidan Karley (talk) 08:48, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Charred Frankincense

I'd always heard Kohl was made from the crushed remnant of burnt Frankincense, and that the lead version is an inferior substitute.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=gTgdRuWa9xMC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=kohl+frankincense&source=bl&ots=x-a33yvROH&sig=r6-iTx6Z52AgXOhaI-8F4gIiPdM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Yv0JVPyWFoLX8gXVl4KIDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kohl%20frankincense&f=false

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/frankinscence/Home5.html

124.190.228.46 (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Hatshepsut obtained frankinscence from the same Land of Punt that reportedly also supplied the galena. She sent an official expedition there during her reign, which brought frankinscence, myrrh and other gifts. Punt was at the time ruled by King Perahu and Queen Ati. Middayexpress (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Proper Attributions

I am not familiar with the rules of Wikipedia:Plagiarism; could someone who is please check the Health concerns section to verify that it is properly attributed? I am mainly concerned with the parts added in the 17 September 2015 edits. They seem to be a direct copy/paste of the original text. I don't know if this requires more than a token reference. — Shattered Gnome (talk) 19:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

In English please?

  "A group of researchers in China tried to find some scientific basis of this claimed property of lead sulphide (galena) relating to absorption of sun rays when applied into the eyes in the form of kohl.[20] The authors reported the ultraviolet (UV) absorption spectra of a thin film of lead sulphide prepared on "Indium Tin Oxide" (ITO) substrate. The spectra showed that lead sulphide thin films had higher absorption and lower transmittance in UV light band which further increases with the increased deposition voltage."

I'm generally considered a not-unintelligent sort of person, but I had to sit back and re-read that about 4 times before I decided that I think it means that they studied it and discovered that, yes, kohl does serve to block UV radiation. Things on wikipedia ought to be penetrable to people who speak plain English, unless you're talking about something so technical there is no way to put it in simpler terms. This is just an example of using jargon that sounds impressive but it really not necessary and just obfuscates the meaning of the paragraph to the average reader. And is that even good grammar? "[They] reported the UV absorption spectra of a thin film of lead sulphide"? Wouldn't they report ON the spectra, not "report the spectra"? And what is this about "deposition voltage"? I'd assume "deposition" related to the thickness of the film of lea sulphide, an what does that have to do with "voltage"? What does UV radiation have to do with "voltage"? All this has to say is that "researchers found that when they put a thin film of lead sulphide on an indium tin oxide substrate, it showed that the lead sulphide was effective at absorbing and blocking UV radiation". AnnaGoFast (talk) 22:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

There definitely seems to be some stuff that's not NPOV - almost seeming as if the author wants to promote the use of lead; I notice that Vincent has got a paragraph here that seems to be identical to what is on the article page. Some of the language doesn't seem to scan very well, either. I may try to do a bit of tidying up when I have a moment.Philculmer (talk) 14:55, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Medicinal use of Kohl among the Ancient Egyptians

There is presently a 'citation needed' sticker after the statement that Kohl was used by the ancient Egyptians as an eye-medicine. Although it is a very old source, one possible citation that I came across last night (purely by chance: I was reading the book for occult interest and came here to try an obtain some images of kohl being worn to get a better idea of its appearance) is The Mummy: A Handbook of Egyptian Funerary Archaeology by E.A. Wallis Budge, 2nd edition, Cambridge University Press, 1925, pp. 258-9:

In all periods the Egyptians have suffered severely from disease of the eyes, and there seems never to have been a time when they did not apply unguents and medicaments to them to minimize the effects of the heat and glare of the day and the bitter cold of the night. They used many kinds of salves and ointments of a soothing nature, but these were not sufficient to preserve the eyes from rheum and inflammation, and at a very early period the use of mineral compounds became common, both among men and women. The mineral compound in common use was mestem-t... or stibium. This seems to have been a black powder, the sesquisulphuret of antimony, but oxide of copper, uatch, sulphide of lead and many other substances were used.

On pp. 260-261 Budge translates some inscriptions on four-tube kohl pots, one reading fine eye paint [for use] every day, from the first to the fourth month of Akhat, for the season of Pert and for the season of Shemu, which he interprets as proving a variation of medicine throughout the year. Another is translated for daily use, a powder which opened the eyes, a powder which cleansed (?) the eyes, and last a powder which removed rheum from them. This, of course, he interprets as a medicinal rather than a cosmetic use.

I have not put it into the article as it is a very old source and there are some cautionary notes on the Wikipedia page of E.A. Wallis Budge with regard to opinion and incontrovertible fact not always being as sharply distinguished as we would expect now. Ideally an Egyptologist could settle the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.107.163 (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2018 (UTC)