Talk:List of sovereign states

Holy See

TDL, the Vatican is a state; the Holy See is a different thing and cannot be described as a state. It is the episcopal see (or diocese) of the Pope and the central government of the Catholic Church. Its "territory" is the whole city of Rome, not just the Vatican. The Vatican is that part of the Holy See under sovereign/state authority of the Pope. By calling the Holy See "a non-member-state observer" the UN is not calling it a state. It's just saying that it's an observer and not a member-state.Barjimoa (talk) 10:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

As mentioend in my edit summary, the Holy See is recognized as a Non-Member-State by the UN (see here: [1]), so the language in the article here is correct.

The UN has another cateogory for non-state observers (see here), so calling it a state which is non member observer. It was a big deal back when Palestine's status at the UN was upgraded from "just" an observer to a non-member state observer (like the Holy See), which was broadly interpreted as the UN recognizing its statehod. See [2] for example. TDL (talk) 02:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree it's been interpreted as such for Palestine, but not for the Holy See. No one describes the Holy See as a state in international law, everyone does it for the Vatican. In fact, even this article lists the Vatican and not the Holy See; the problem is that this article is simply and evidently mistaken in treating the Holy See as if it's the same thing of the Vatican city. It ought to be corrected, no? A state is generally agreed to have: a sivereign territory, a population, a government. What's the population, sovereign territory and government of the Holy See? The Holy See is the bishopric of Rome (embodied by the Pope), and bishoprics are divisions inside the Catholic Church, not states. The Vatican is a state (with a territory, a population, a government) over which the Holy See has sovereignity.Barjimoa (talk) 05:12, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes I understand all of that, and if you are proposing to add further clarity in the description of the Vatican City text description then I'm supportive of that.

However, none of that changes the fact that the UN does recognize the Holy See as a non-member observer state and so we must descirbe it as such. We can't describe it as something else just because you think that the UN is wrong. If the UN didn't think it was a state, it would be recognized as an observer entity, much like the SMOM for example (see [3]). You can read the most recent UN resolution for yourself, it is very clear: "Acknowledges that the Holy See, in its capacity as an Observer State...".

The way you worded things would have led us to conclude that Palestine was a UN recognized state prior to the 2012 resolution (since it was recognized as an observer entity at that point), at a time when it clearly was not. Observer states and observer entities are different, and it's only the latter that is relevant to this list/context. We need to keep that clear in the text, otherwise it opens the door to debating the inclusion of various observer entities. TDL (talk) 18:32, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

There is a problem

For South Korea, it says there is no soviergenty dispute, even though it’s not reconized by North Korea. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A result of this edit. This is likely related to the media hype surrounding their recent constitutional change, which some media claimed was recognition. CMD (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, it’s not really a recognition. This is this like saying Isreal reconizes Palestine because they are Enemies. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 01:26, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

I would agree, and agree with reverting absent better sourcing. It was an idea that did spread a bit as these things can, even if not fully supported. CMD (talk) 02:13, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Denmark's link is wrong

The entry on this page for Denmark links to the page for Metropolitan Denmark, although it should link to the Kingdom of Denmark article. MossW268 (talk) 20:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The sovereign state is the Kingdom. TheLegendofGanon (talk) 22:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I've changed it. The link now points to the Kingdom, not the constituent country. TheLegendofGanon (talk) 20:50, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Questions

So, it said the criteria is tó edit this article is tó have an account over 30 days old with 500 edits, but it’s not extra protected. Second of all, Afghanistan’s flag is missing, and when í went tó add it, it said that the flag is suppossed tó nót be there, and it talked about more info, there was no link.. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 01:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

It says "The situation is explained in the further information column", and further information column is right after it which contains "The de facto ruling government, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, has not been recognised by any state. The United Nations continues to recognise the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as the government of Afghanistan." Svito3 (talk) 01:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

There's a very large banner near the top of this talk page. Remsense诉 01:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Map?

Example map

Can we get a map, like the one I've added to the right, into the article? The comment in the article says, "Please discuss at talk before adding a map here. There are neutrality issues to resolve.", and I believe the attached map resolves such issues, as it shows borders of all countries listed in the article, with non-UN states shown in red. The map may still need some updating, as it is from 2012, but overall, it suits the article. Any thoughts on this idea? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 08:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The two things that I notice are that Artsakh no longer exists, and Palestine should be coloured yellow. TheLegendofGanon (talk) 22:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Alphabetisation of the Koreas

I've noticed that North and South Korea have been alphabetised as "North Korea" and "South Korea", not "Korea, North" and "Korea, South". This goes against the results of a prior discussion where it was decided that, since they're not officially called North and South Korea, they should be listed as starting with "K". I think they should be changed accordingly. TheLegendofGanon (talk) 12:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Talk:List_of_sovereign_states/Archive_15#Koreas_and_Congos As of this discussion around two years ago, the status quo seemed to be to have the Koreas listed under "K". I can't find when it was changed since then. Horse Eye's Back, would you mind explaining why you reverted my edit? It seemed to be the best thing to keep the article consistent (especially with the two Congos) and (unless there's something I've missed) it was the most recently agreed upon consensus. But if I was too eager, I apologise. TheLegendofGanon (talk) 17:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

What you do is change the {{sortname}} of the table cell, but not the name actually displayed. Remsense诉 17:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Remsense, sort them differently but don't change the order of the name Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks.

One question, though, here's the code for the DRC: |<span id="Democratic Republic of the Congo"></span>'''{{flag|Democratic Republic of the Congo|name=Congo, Democratic Republic of the}}'''

And here's my code for North Korea: |<span id="North Korea"></span>'''{{flag|North Korea|name=Korea, North}}'''

And the other entries that are sorted differently to their name have the same syntax. Is there some hidden difference between these two that I'm not aware of, or are they actually the same? TheLegendofGanon (talk) 18:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)