Q1: Why does this article have The in the title? Most articles don't.
A1: The name The Holocaust is common usage. Article titles follow subjects, not other articles. See also previous discussions on the question, linked in the move banner below.
Q2: The Holocaust was not only about Jews; the total death toll was more like 15 million.
A2: As it says in the lead sentence which defines the scope of the article, the Holocaust "was the genocide of European Jews during World War II". As mentioned elsewhere in the lead, other population groups suffered systematic mass-killings, but the term The Holocaust is "understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews".
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.PhilosophyWikipedia:WikiProject PhilosophyTemplate:WikiProject PhilosophyPhilosophy articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.ReligionWikipedia:WikiProject ReligionTemplate:WikiProject ReligionReligion articles
The Holocaust is within the scope of WikiProject Disability. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.DisabilityWikipedia:WikiProject DisabilityTemplate:WikiProject DisabilityDisability articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIESWikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations (9 May 2021):
The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard.
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
Just saying that it wasn’t just Jews who were persecuted it was also disabled people, communists, and many others 2A00:23C5:1771:3501:FD4C:24DD:7CF2:F6BB (talk) 18:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the FAQ at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk) 18:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is contradicting itself on this actually. The article unabiguously defines the Holocaust as the genocide of Jewish people by Nazi Germany, but the term is not only used within those parameters, and the page had many references to it which seem to have been scrubbed. More importantly, the article itself does not agree with this definition at the very top where it states: "For all peoples persecuted during this era, see Holocaust victims." Additionally, the Holocaust (disambiguation) page defines it this way: "a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered approximately 6 million European Jews and 5 million other persecuted groups such as ethnic Poles, the Romani, homosexuals and people with disabilities." Even if the consensus is to explicitly only define the Holocaust in the way most of the article does, there should be a link at the top to an article that describes the broader genocide perpetuated by the Nazis, which is not easy to find from this page. Carthradge (talk) 01:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're not wrong, this is a well known problem, that other pages on Wikipedia aren't in synch with this one. And I think you're right about the solution, too. My read is that the whole problem is waiting on someone to write the page about the broader genocide perpetuated by the Nazis, and the reason it hasn't been written yet is the same reason I don't want to write it: it's a really grim subject to research and summarize. Levivich (talk) 07:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SOFIXIT is the correct response here. That this is a GA with such an obvious flaw is a bit of a problem, though, and a review of that status might be warranted.2601:601:A400:B5F5:15E:42C8:6D80:40EE (talk) 02:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The holocaust was not only the mass murder of jews, but also Roma, Gays, Transgender, communists, and Slavs, and the number is around 17 million, this article is factually incorrect as per wikipedia itself
Hi there. Please see the FAQ at the top of the page - Antandrus(talk) 20:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The FAQ’s logic is complete nonsense. It’s basically “because most people misunderstand it we repeat the common misunderstanding rather than reflect reliable secondary sources.” Not going to bother engaging but this is embarrassingly bad logic and referring people to that FAQ is not an argument. That the others are explicitly not mentioned despite their broad coverage in reliable secondary sources is a problem with pretty much all of WP:5P.2601:601:A400:B5F5:15E:42C8:6D80:40EE (talk) 02:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2601:601:A400:B5F5:15E:42C8:6D80:40EE, rather than reflect reliable secondary sources, as far as I can tell you haven't mentioned any? Robby.is.on (talk) 10:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree the FAQ does not answer the question, just restates the position the article is taking. The question is why this is the correct position for this article.
"The Holocaust was the state-sponsored persecution and mass murder of millions of European Jews, Romani people, the intellectually disabled, political dissidents and homosexuals by the German Nazi regime between 1933 and 1945."
"Holocaust, the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others"
And the repeated comments on this topic are evidence that in practice people come to this article with the expectation of the broader usage.
Finally, the use of "Holocaust" across dozens of other wikipedia articles in the broader use further demonstrates that the narrow use is not obviously correct/common, for example: "Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, or sexual orientation." from https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Holocaust_victims or "The persecution reached its climax when the party-controlled German state set in motion the Final Solution – an industrial system of genocide that carried out mass murders of around 6 million Jews and millions of other targeted victims in what has become known as the Holocaust." from https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Nazi_Party
I mean, this is all a bit pointless since the decision has clearly already been made. But imo, the correct choice here is to put the expansive definition in the opening paragraph. And this isn't an issue of historical fact, but rather of tone and perspective. When gentile victims are mentioned in the article, the wording often seems chosen to maximize the 'otherness' of Jewish people and gentiles. For example, from https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Romani_Holocaust "the On 16 December 1942, Himmler ordered that the Romani candidates for extermination should be transferred from ghettos to the extermination facilities of Auschwitz-Birkenau. On 15 November 1943, Himmler ordered that Romani and "part-Romanies" were to be put "on the same level as Jews and placed in concentration camps" which shows near-identical mechanisms and facilities being used for mass murder, but The Holocaust article uses the language "Separate Nazi persecutions ..." to first introduce non-Jewish victims. I'm sure someone so-motivated can make a argument why "separate" is still technically correct, but the point is that this framing is a choice made in the article, not a point of fact.
The https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Holocaust_victims "Scope of usage" article does a much more balanced job of this, including the important note that people can and did belong to more than one targeted 'category'. Camipco (talk) 13:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Face fucking desk for completely ignoring AT4. SinoDevonian (talk) 02:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mind your language please (see "be polite" in the boxout above). Wikipedia: "The AT4 is a Swedish 84 mm (3.31 in) unguided, man-portable, disposable, shoulder-fired recoilless anti-tank weapon manufactured by Saab Bofors Dynamics" - not sure what the relevance is here? 185.13.50.219 (talk) 10:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I reckon SinoDevonian means Aktion T4. SinoDevonian, can you provide reliable sources that would prove scholars consider Aktion T4 part of the Holocaust? Robby.is.on (talk) 10:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Does wikipedia count as a reliable source? Because "which began with legalized social discrimination against specific groups, involuntary hospitalization, euthanasia, and forced sterilization of persons considered physically or mentally unfit for society." from https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Holocaust_victims . That article sources:
I think AT4 is not part of "The Holocaust" proper, which starts from the 'Final Solution' Wannsee conference January 1942, and is more an example of the genocidal nature of Nazism that historically leads up to The Holocaust. So while AT4 is definitely related and relevant, it isn't "The Holocaust". Then again, by the Wannsee definition, the murders of some 2 million Jewish people precede The Holocaust and so wouldn't count as part of it, when this article (correctly) does count, for example, the mass shooting of Jewish people in 1941 during the invasion of the Soviet Union in the numbers, similarly Jewish people who died of starvation, exhaustion and disease from conditions in the work camps are counted.
In any case, the omission of AT4 is a consequence of the goal of drawing a firm line between Jewish victims and gentile victims that this article apparently has decided is correct. Camipco (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 April 2024[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Change "A quick victory was expected and was planned to be followed a massive demographic engineering project to remove 31 million people and replace them with German settlers" to "A quick victory was expected and was planned to be followed by a massive demographic engineering project to remove 31 million people and replace them with German settlers" Mchcopl (talk) 02:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opening paragraphs entirely omit the fact that 11 million other people were victims[edit]
Hi there, The Holocaust was the systematic killing of European Jews that resulted in the deaths of 6 million Jews. But with it, 11 million other people were killed. The content of Holocaust victims doesn't align with the opening paragraphs, nor the content here. I find it peculiar that concrete numbers of the other victims are left out, and that they are barely mentioned in passing. Thanks, Maqdisi (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Theres another that said 14 million were killed and only 6 million were jews...it is in effect biased 173.80.7.142 (talk) 01:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the FAQ at the top of this page. Acroterion(talk) 01:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And you'll find other sources which say 20 million gentiles PLUS 6 million jews for a total of 26 million. Most of the figures "estimated" by all of these sources are just wild guesses and exaggerations. 70.178.140.205 (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 April 2024[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
"The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews" - this is incorrect.
THE HOLOCAUST WAS THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS, POLES AND OTHER EUROPEAN CITIZENS, please correct.