Talk:Yahweh
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Yahweh article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Yahweh was copied or moved into Documentary hypothesis with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. |
It is requested that one or more audio files be included in this article to improve its quality. Please see Wikipedia:Requested recordings for more on this request. |
|
|||||||||||
Sources for editors:[edit]
Innovative argument from the author of SBL Press’ textbook on ancient Israel:
https://er.ceres.rub.de/index.php/ER/article/view/8776/8449
Lots of European scholarship:
The Origins of Yahwism, edited by Jürgen van Oorschot and Markus Witte. Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 484. Berlin/Boston: De Gruyter 2600:100C:B037:E65A:20B7:29D5:1ADF:FD60 (talk) 19:52, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Needs an etymology section[edit]
I feel like there used to be one maybe? The etymology of Yahweh is an interesting topic and merits several introductory paragraphs. IncandescentBliss (talk) 06:22, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
- See Yahweh#Name which links to Tetragrammaton. DeCausa (talk) 13:20, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
OT attestation of syncretic practices[edit]
I feel like it should be noted in the article, that the syncretic practices described (worship of Yahweh polytheistically; sacrifices outside of Temple) are attested in the Old Testament. They are described as a departure from the original doctrine, something that was existent and even widespread at times in the land but considered blasphemous by the "righteous" priests/leaders.
I understand why non-Christian sources could be skeptical about this if these texts were written post-Josiah's reformation. But in light of the lack of substantial evidence for a Canaanite origin of the deity (i.e. a direct contradiction of the biblical claim), it seems worth mentioning the version of events attested by the OT authors. Thanuhrei (talk) 01:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Thanuhrei: The Bible is not a history book, and certainly not mainstream history. See WP:RSPSCRIPTURE. And probably Yahweh was imported by Shasu pastoralists.
Yahweh was a "divine warrior from the southern region associated with Seir, Edom, Paran and Teman"
. Copy/paste from Yahweh. - And even if we assume we don't know where the Israelites got their god Yahweh from, they certainly did not get him from Abraham or Moses.
- The academic consensus is that Yahweh was originally a Pagan god, Pagan meaning polytheistic. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not asking for the consensus shown in the article to be changed, and I'm not asking Wikipedia to view the Bible as infallible. Please don't take me that way.
- But, as a book that probably dates in part to as far back as Josiah's reign (see "Dating the Bible etc.), it seems that the Torah would at least be a source to consider when interpreting archaeology from near that time.
- I'm proposing, at most, a sentence or two clarifying that the pagan practices described are attested in the Jewish tradition.
- Thanuhrei (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not asking on the authority of the Bible as the Judaeo-Christian holy book, I'm asking on the authority of sections of the Old Testament, which date in whole or in part to the Kingdom period, a time in recent cultural memory of these practices existing. Thanuhrei (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Thanuhrei:
Between the 10th century and the beginning of their exile in 586 there was polytheism as normal religion all throughout Israel; only afterwards things begin to change and very slowly they begin to change. I would say it is only correct for the last centuries, maybe only from the period of the Maccabees, that means the second century BC, so in the time of Jesus of Nazareth it is true, but for the time before it, it is not true.
— Prof. Dr. Herbert Niehr, Tübingen University, Bible's Buried Secrets, Did God have A Wife, BBC, 2011But to sum up, it's clear that the biblical patriarchs and matriarchs are not strict Yahwists, as we will come to understand that term. The P and the E sources preserve this insight; and they preserve it in their insistence that the Patriarchs worshiped God as El, but at the time of the Exodus, God revealed himself as Yahweh. There's an interesting passage in the book of Joshua, Joshua 24:14-15. Joshua was the successor to Moses. He presents the Israelites with the following choice: "Now therefore revere the Lord," using the word Yahweh, "revere Yahweh, and serve him with undivided loyalty. Put away the gods that your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt"--put away the gods your forefathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt--"and serve Yahweh. / Choose this day which ones you are going to serve, but I in my household will serve Yahweh," serve the Lord. Only later would a Yahweh-only party polemicize against and seek to suppress certain… what came to be seen as undesirable elements of Israelite-Judean religion, and these elements would be labeled Canaanite, as a part of a process of Israelite differentiation. But what appears in the Bible as a battle between Israelites, pure Yahwists, and Canaanites, pure polytheists, is indeed better understood as a civil war between Yahweh-only Israelites, and Israelites who are participating in the cult of their ancestors.
— Christie Hayes, Open Yale Courses- Niehr speaks about the truth of the sentence "Ancient Jews were monotheists".
- And, again, WP:RSPSCRIPTURE: only modern Bible scholars may interpret the Bible for us. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Can't edit but have a question regarding translation[edit]
Yeah I am just curiouse because "adonoy" is translated as "my lords" and while "lords" is acceptable (as ooposed to "masters") i'm pretty sure the word is singular, meaning the translation should be "my lord" CarryingTheMeme (talk) 19:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- B-Class vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia vital articles in Philosophy and religion
- B-Class level-4 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-4 vital articles in Philosophy and religion
- B-Class vital articles in Philosophy and religion
- B-Class Ancient Near East articles
- Top-importance Ancient Near East articles
- Ancient Near East articles by assessment
- B-Class Judaism articles
- Top-importance Judaism articles
- B-Class Christianity articles
- Top-importance Christianity articles
- B-Class Jehovah's Witnesses articles
- Mid-importance Jehovah's Witnesses articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles
- B-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- B-Class Jewish history-related articles
- Top-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles
- B-Class Mythology articles
- Top-importance Mythology articles