Talk:Arab citizens of Israel

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sir Joseph (talk | contribs) at 19:34, 3 April 2024 (→‎Requested move 21 March 2024: o). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Population evolution

Damn, from 200k after the 48 war to 1.8 million today? That's an increase nearing 900%?? How did that happen? That has to be covered in further detail in the article!! Synotia (moan) 09:37, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I replied to the same question at Israel just now. Israel includes East Jerusalem Arabs in its count. Ispop went from 1 to 9 mill (their figures) between 1950 and 2019, that's 9 times as well. Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure but it is largely due to Jewish immigration, most notably in the 1950s and 1990s. Also it includes the Arabs in question.
Are Palestinians from the world moving to Israel? Synotia (moan) 10:52, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a discussion of the relative pop growth rates in the source I gave at Israel talk page. For instance "Jewish immigration contributed to 44.7% of the increase achieved in the population between 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007" and As a consequence, immigration also brought about an increase in natural growth so that it became the main source of population growth."
As for the Arabs "These figures demonstrate the continuous diminution in 1948 Arab growth rates, and this decrease has been accelerating during the last decade, so that it has notreached more than half (or slightly more) of the highest rate ever reached. Despite this significant decrease, however, Arab growth rate in 2007 remained at 186% of the Jewish growth rate. The average growth rate was confined only to natural growth; that is, the difference between the number of births and the number of deaths during the period extending from 15 May 1948 and the end of 2007, and this was slightly less than the average Jewish growth rate which encompasses both natural growth and net immigration"
Anyway, it needs looking at in depth, just looking at raw pop figures can be very misleading. Selfstudier (talk) 11:01, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not all Israeli Arabs are citizens

While it is true that there are 2 million Arab residents in Israel, not all of them are citizens. More specifically, the vast majority of East Jerusalem Arabs don't hold Israeli citizenship and don't have the right to it (they can ask for it, but the majority of applications are rejected).

This needs to be urgently corrected, because the information provided by the article in its present form is misleading. Josep Amunt i Avall (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Arab citizens of Israel. Although Israel has annexed East Jerusalem, this act is not recognised by other states, and Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not live in Israel. RolandR (talk) 23:49, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If this article is about pre-1967 Israel, the map shouldn't include East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights in the first place. More to the point, the figure of 20.95% of Arabs in Israel is true only if the Arabs in both territories are counted. So, we should either inform the number of Arabs within the internationally recognized borders of Israel (which is closer to 1.6 M than to 1.9 M) or clarify that the figure of ~1.9 M includes Arabs who don't hold Israeli citizenship. Josep Amunt i Avall (talk) 11:50, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Roland i think Josep is right here. In our infobox we say there are 278,000 in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights Arab citizens of Israel. And there are not. The Syrians of the Golan have largely rejected Israeli citizenship, as have the ones in EJ. We are just counting Arabs, not Arab citizens. And we need to correct that. nableezy - 16:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

This page references the Nakba as if it was universally agreed upon event. It is not. To include this as factual truth accepted by all is anti-Jewish and DEEPLY anti-Israeli. Mention of it is fine but it should include some contextualization that the Nakba is only viewed as an event for the Arab world. And the majority of Jews, disregard this as propaganda to discredit the legitimacy of Israel. I will not donate to Wikipedia until this is rectified. 2601:742:8000:C0E0:2199:497D:FBD4:D90B (talk) 03:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Question: I assume this is about the use of the term in the lead. However, I'm unsure exactly what you're looking to change that sentence to – could you specify exactly what you would like to replace, and with what you would like it replaced with? Tollens (talk) 05:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, so you're aware, no editor is affected by your decision whether or not to donate – we are all volunteers. Tollens (talk) 05:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

British palastinean citizenship

The statement in the first paragraph referring to Israeli Arabs as having a heritage of Palestinian citizenship is both misleading and insulting. It gives recognition to the British mandated "citizenship" for the indigenous inhabitants of the foreign territory under British control. As this "citizenship" was created by a foreign government in 1925 for only 23 years it does not define the "heritage" of palastinean citizenship for anyone, especially considering that the British gave this citizenship to all of the current inhabitants! Including a large percentage of non-arabs many of whom were Jewish immigrants from Europe! Thecarriger (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}): near the bottom of the economic status section, there's an instance of the phrase "they has" that should be changed to "they have"
  • Why it should be changed: "they has" is grammatically incorrect

Daffgatter (talk) 01:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

 Done Shadow311 (talk) 16:22, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recent revert

1. Change: "Palestinian Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They are Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage and various religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities." to "Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They comprise a hybrid community of Israeli citizens with a heritage of Palestinian citizenship, mixed religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities."

The first version is more reflective of the source

2. Change: "Many Arabs have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well as to Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring states of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, although Israel denies family unification rights to those living in the occupied territories.[1][2][3] A recent poll reported that 60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state, although Arab citizens have also been described, and sometimes identify as, second-class citizens.[4][5]" to "Many Arabs have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as well as to Palestinian refugees in the neighbouring states of Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.[3] 60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state;[6]"

The first is more complete and consistent with the rest of the article.

I suggest we revert these changes. @Île flottante DMH223344 (talk) 17:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My primary issues with the edit is the superfluous addition of ‘Palestinian’ to the sentence ‘Arabs at the largest ethnic minority in Israel.’ Not all Arab citizens of Israel are Palestinians (either because they do not identify as such, or they belong to the double minority of Syrian Druze who accepted Israeli citizenship). Given that the article is about all the Arab citizens of Israel, focusing solely on a section (albeit the majority of the overall group) in the very first sentence doesn’t seem appropriate.
That said, I think your modification to the second sentence in the lead is beneficial. The phrasing ‘heritage of Palestinian citizenship’ could cause people to believe that their identity did not exist at all before 1925 when the citizenship order was issued.
Finally, I do agree with you that mentioning the issues of family reunification and a feeling of second class citizenship are topics worthy of inclusion. Île flottante (talk) 08:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"My primary issues with the edit is the superfluous addition of ‘Palestinian’ to the sentence ‘Arabs at the largest ethnic minority in Israel.’"
The first paragraph of the lead is almost entirely about palestinians, thus my addition of "Palestinian": "Arabs are the largest ethnic minority in Israel. They comprise a hybrid community of Israeli citizens with a heritage of Palestinian citizenship, mixed religions (Muslim, Christian or Druze), bilingual in Arabic and Hebrew, and with varying social identities. Since the 1948 exodus, the Palestinians that have remained within Israel's 1948 borders have been colloquially known as "48-Arabs". In Arabic, commonly used terms to refer to Israel's Arab population include both "48-Arab" (عرب ٤٨, ‘Arab Thamāniya wa-Arba‘īn; Hebrew: 48-ערבים) and 48-Palestinian (فلسطينيو ٤٨, Filasṭīniyyū Thamāniya wa-Arba‘īn)."
I would be fine reworking this first paragraph, but it will take some work to get it right. The change I proposed above at least makes the paragraph factually correct. (Right now, the first two sentences of the lead imply that Arab Israelis are all palestinian) DMH223344 (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Israel Reinstates Ban on Palestinian Family Unification - Adalah". www.adalah.org.
  2. ^ "Israel's apartheid against Palestinians". Amnesty International. 1 February 2022. Israel has enacted discriminatory laws and policies that disrupt family life for Palestinians. Since 2002, Israel has adopted a policy of prohibiting Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza from gaining status in Israel or East Jerusalem through marriage, thus preventing family unification. Israel has long used discriminatory laws and policies to separate Palestinians from their families. For example, Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza cannot gain legal status in Israel or occupied East Jerusalem through marriage, denying their rights to family unification. This policy has forced thousands of Palestinians to live apart from their loved ones; others are forced to go abroad, or live in constant fear of being arrested, expelled or deported. These measures explicitly target Palestinians, and not Jewish Israelis, and are primarily guided by demographic considerations that aim to minimize Palestinian presence inside Israel/OPT.
  3. ^ a b Spencer C. Tucker; Priscilla Roberts (12 May 2008). The Encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, and Military History [4 volumes]: A Political, Social, and Military History. ABC-CLIO. p. 503. ISBN 978-1-85109-842-2.
  4. ^ "What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel". Council on Foreign Relations.
  5. ^ "Israeli Arabs Are Second-class Citizens, and It's Costing Their Lives". Haaretz.
  6. ^ "Survey: 60% of Arab Israelis have positive view of state". The Jerusalem Post | Jpost.com. Retrieved 2022-02-16.

Requested move 21 March 2024

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel – Following the even votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Palestinian citizens of Israel, the discussion was closed as merge. That article had been created as an outcome of another even vote at Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 8#Requested move 27 October 2021, which talked about a refactoring of the content if the name was changed. Implementing this merge will result in such a refactoring. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:19, 21 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Doesn’t that deny a significant amount of arguments from the original thread, being that there is strong but not complete overlap? As the current title is broader and encompasses all, it’s preferable. FortunateSons (talk) 11:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Current title is broader and better. Palestinian Arabs are Arabs, ergo are included under the current implied scope. Why exclude the fraction of Israeli Arabs that are not or do not identify as Palestinian? Why should the page be rescoped? Srnec (talk) 03:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It seems the only way to fix up somewhat contradictory closes is for each subgroup of "Arab citizens of Israel" (which in truth is nothing more than an Israeli invention) to have its own article (some already do), so this one should have all the material that has nothing to do with Palestinian citizens of Israel removed from it and be renamed.Selfstudier (talk) 11:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not all Israeli Arabs self-identify as Palestinian, yet all identify as Arab. Marokwitz (talk) 11:08, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Clearly an NPOV violation as not all Arabs identify as Palestinian. As I've suggested before, if people want an article on Arabs with Israeli citizenship who identify as Palestinian, that could be legitimately forked to Palestinian identity in Israel. Number 57 13:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The real problem here is that the current title is Israeli POV and thus violates WP:POVNAME. This can be credibly sourced without difficulty, viz:

...what label should be attached to them? Much more than merely semantics is at stake. how one chooses to identify the Arab minority in israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew-language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. in doing so, they emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label.Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel "Israeli Arabs" or "Palestinian Arabs"? Are they Israelis or Palestinians? Ilan Peleg; Dov Waxman (2011). Israel's Palestinians: The Conflict Within (illustrated ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-521-15702-5.

Having said that, it is not clear that the current proposal is neutral either therefore I think we need to find a consensus via an RFC and not by an RM where editors are simply going to !vote their POV as is occurring here already.Selfstudier (talk) 11:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair enough point – what would be a neutral term in your opinion? GnocchiFan (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Atm, I am simply considering an RFC with question "Is the current title NPOV? If not, what would be an appropriate title?" Selfstudier (talk) 15:34, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Marokwitz. 三葉草 San Yeh Tsao 04:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – clearly not all Arab Israelis identify as Palestinian. I understand the concerns raised by Selfstudier (and mentioned on our Palestinian citizens of Israel article) that this could be seen as POV by some, but I fail to see any alternative that would be suitable. – GnocchiFan (talk) 10:41, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, of course but Druze, Bedouin, Circassian, Jew, etcetera, all have their own article, so why not PCI? After that, why do we need this article at all, except on the same basis as we have articles Judea and Samaria Area and West Bank, and WP:WESTBANK to go with it, clearly identifying the Israeli POV. Selfstudier (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: There seems to be consensus that the current title may be NPOV but that the proposed title isn't better. Relisting to see if any NPOV titles are proposed. Bensci54 (talk) 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground, which builds on the consensus of the AfD to merge the two articles. Also important to note that a quick google search reveals that "Palestinian citizens of Israel" shows 191k results, while "Arab citizens of Israel" shows 142k results. Aside from these search results, majority of "Arab Israelis" are Palestinians, so we are giving undue weight here to the minority of "Arab Israelis" who do not identify as Palestinian for whatever reason. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are some Palestinian citizens of Israel not Arabs? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I can think of; but allegedly, some Arab citizens of Israel are not Palestinian, or at least they do not identify as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:21, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It really depends how you define Arab. For example there are Palestinian Christians who came from Greece in the early 20th century, but now speak Arabic. Are they Arab Christians? Or Arabic-speaking Greek Christians? The more you discuss ethnicity and identity, the more you unravel what a load of meaningless drivel it all is – except that is, of course, for use in racist rhetoric. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really the issue, the Israeli POV simply classifies the population that is not Jewish as Arab, a practice that goes back to the Balfour Declaration ("existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine") and which then forms the basis for discrimination against that population. Selfstudier (talk) 10:22, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's an important question here. We shouldn't use an article title saying "A and B" if A is a subset of B. That would be redundant and confusing to readers since it would imply a non-subset relationship. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The more important thing is that "Arab citizens of Israel" is an Israeli invention and terminology, regardless of what subsets it contains. Selfstudier (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The real problem is the merger, the arguments for which were born out of deep miscomprehension. As noted, "Israeli Arabs" is an Israeli administrative categorization; "Palestinian citizens of Israel" was a topic/page about identity. The merger will erase the page about identity in favour of maintaining only a page about the administrative term – a somewhat onerous erasure. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:40, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support renaming to "Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel" as a middle ground. It does not make sense to have two articles about what is (with <1% exceptions) the same group of people. (The exceptions are Golan Heights Arabs and a few thousand Lebanese). The Israeli authorities call them "Arab citizens of Israel" (ACI) and in the last decade or so, the majority of ACIs have started to prefer the term "Palestinian citizens of Israel (PCI)" or at least six variations using "Palestinian". I have over eight reliable sources which specifically say these terms are used for the same group, and 4 additional RS that use them interchangeably. Compare that to the argument that PCIs are "people who prefer the term Palestinian" - and there is *no* reliable source about the topic ever brought forward in these extensive discussions. I still don't understand how so many RS are simply ignored and some editors simply without RS that the term PCIs describes people who "prefer" that term, as if that were self-evident. That would be like having four separate articles for Black Americans, African Americans, Colored Americans and Negro Americans for example (pardon my use of the 2 terms now considered offensive, it's only to make a point). In any case, the result of that discussion was to delete the PCI article and merge any remainder into this one (which I had largely done anyway). I think compromising on the name is wise, because respecting the wishes of the majority of the PCI people themselves, would lead us to name the article "Palestinian citizens of Israel". As an analogy, the article Black Americans was moved to African Americans in 2009, presumably out of respect for the majority of African Americans' preference, rather than WP:COMMON. But I think the pushback from editors favoring the terminology of the Israeli authorities would be so great, that it would be intractable. Therefore Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel. But, to keep the article as ACI, is considered by some a term that the Israeli ruling establishment use in order to dissociate PCIs from other descendants of the people of Mandatory Palestine, who live in the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, and outside of historic Palestine — although some PCIs would not agree.Keizers (talk) 22:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The Druze Israelis are officially part of the Arab Citizens of Israel, but AFAIK few if any within Israel identify as Palestinian, but instead lean en masse into the Israeli side of they identity. They are 7.5% of the Arab population, 1.6% of all. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think this is a "middle ground" and is arguably quite confusing as it could be read as Palestinians not being Arabs. The idea that "Arab citizens of Israel" is non-neutral and an "Israeli invention" is nonsense in my view. It is a simple descriptive term, and in my view is the middle ground between describing people as "Arab-Israelis" and "Palestinians". And re the complaint re lack of article on Palestinian identity, I don't think anyone would have complained had there been an article on Palestinian identity in Israel. Number 57 11:24, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the best thing to do here is move directly to RFC on the neutrality issue. The irritating thing here is that there are sources aplenty on PCI and yet no article, one has to ask why is that? Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's been explained why, including at both an RM and the AfD. But again – I don't think anyone would have a problem with an article on Palestinian identity in Israel. I really don't understand the resistance to simply putting the information there... Number 57 12:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This article is not NPOV imo and if it is true that the majority are PCI, then why not just call it that? I think we know the answer. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Palestinian citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arabs in Israel or Palestinians in Israel, any of these would be better. Selfstudier (talk) 12:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As for --> Palestinian identity in Israel proposed by yourself in 2021, the close states "there is a clear absence consensus for a move at this time" so no need to keep banging that drum. Selfstudier (talk) 12:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per all above, plus the article is by definition about Arab Citizens of Israel. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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