Talk:Al-Lubban ash-Sharqiya

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Mess-up:[edit]

The SWP-index (Stewardson, 1888) has:

Lubban (Sh. 14, Mq), the identity of, II, 286; description, 360.
Lubban Rentîs (Sh. 14, Kq), II, 286

This is the Mq-Lubban (the Kq is Al-Lubban al-Gharbi), however, it seems clear that the SWP II, 360-ref. refers to the Al-Lubban al-Gharbi-village.(?) ............as p. 360 translates Guérin, 1875, p. 112-3. There Guerin describes how he left Lubban to reach Rantis immediately later: Must have been from Al-Lubban al-Gharbi. In other words: the above refs should have been:

Lubban (Sh. 14, Mq), the identity of, II, 286;
Lubban Rentîs (Sh. 14, Kq), II, 286, 360 --->Guérin, 1875, p. 112-3.

Also: Dauphin gives for this place p.816 (grid 1730/1643): SWP II, 286; and Guérin, 1875, p. 164-5. That is correct, it seems.

However, Dauphin gives on p. 822 (grid: 153/160) for Al-Lubban al-Gharbi also Guérin, 1875, p. 164-5!! Wrong! That should be p. 112-3.

Guerin p. 160-164: Deir Istiya --> Kifl Hares --> Marda, Salfit -->Yasuf -->Iskaka (?) --> As-Sawiya-->Khan Lubben -->Al-Lubban ash-Sharqiya. It looks as if the mess started with SWP, who translated Guérin, p. 112-3 for the Al-Lubban ash-Sharqiya-place (Is noted as Lubban Mq on p. 360)

Huldra (talk) 19:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I wrote above: there has been a mix-up between this village, and al-Lubban al-Gharbi, at least since 1882. Conder and Kitchner published on SWP II, 1882, p. 360 that Guerin, Samarie, p. 112-3 described this place. Alas, that Guerin-description is of al-Lubban al-Gharbi.

Others, including Dauphin 1998, have also used the wrong Guerin-ref. However, that does not mean that everything Dauphin writes about this place is wrong; AFAIK, the Byzantine pottery-bit is based on modern finds, and can therefore be used.

But in general, I would be extremely careful using *any* older info about this place; if Conder and Kitchner can mix up the two villages, then so can others! (I have found very few mistakes in SWP.) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:21, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lubanum?[edit]

Pringle writes that this place is the Crusader Lubanum, however, Charles Simon Clermont-Ganneau, on p. 219 in QPEF, 1897, assume that a Crusader-time Luban is just north of Rentis, which must be Al-Lubban al-Gharbi. Are both Lubban-villages mentioned in Crusader-sources....or has someone mixed them up? Huldra (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pringle is persistent in his identification across several books. I also noticed this book. The snippet I can read from p617 is:

"The pottery was collected from the eastern slope below the old core of the village. Conder and Kitchener (1882:286) described five pillar shafts near the little mosque of the village and one doorway, which had "designs in medallions on the arch, but looked like Arab work". DOA Mandatorial file: mosque with 3 aisles and two columns. This, or the nearby Site 17-16/32/01, is the place of biblical Lebonah (Judg. 21:19). Erlich (1983:152-153) and Safrai (1986:164) identify this place with Laban of the Samaritan chronicles. This is apparently Lubanum/Lebna of the Crusader period (Beyer 1940:177), which the Marino Sanuto map marks as Casale Lepna. el-Yunini (II:74) mentions this village as the place of origin of a famous"

The ref to SWPII is to this Lubban and not the other one. I can also see enough of the table of contents to see that it is this Lubban. We should get this book, it looks like it will be very useful. I'm working on it but I'm going away for a few weeks. Zero^talk 02:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Pringle might just have it wrong in several books, Clermont-Ganneau might have got it wrong ....or it might be that both places were indeed mentioned in different "Crusader" sources. In Pringle, 1998, p. 105, he refers to the southern-most boundary of the "territory of Nablus". Unless that territory was defined as being much bigger than later Ottoman governates, then this Lubban would fit. It is sourced to Cast. des. Hosp., I, 183-4, and I cannot see the full ref.: we should check that. The Lederman-book is not available in any library around here, so that would be useful. Is there any chance you could get hold of the Pringle-books? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 10:14, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have "Secular buildings in the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem" and could get "The churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem" v1-4, and "Fortification and settlement in crusader Palestine". Probably you know that several Pringle books can be partly read at amazon.com. Pringle is a big expert on the Crusader period, so I'm more inclined to believe him than Clermont-Ganneau. Zero^talk 11:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

::I have now gotten the "The churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem" v1 & v3. I do not have the ""Secular buildings". (And I have the Moshe Sharon CIAP). Pringle is very useful indeed, but v1 stops at "K". Huldra (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

True, but it seems that even modern scholars seem to mix up these villages if they have similar sounding names. As we have seen with Taybe, Tira, and Arrabeh. I like to check & recheck any info on those places. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical village of Lebonah[edit]

Ok, from what I can see, the "David A. Dorsey" of the (1987). "Shechem and the Road Network of Central Samaria". Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research (268): 57–70. is probably this guy. He "taught Old Testament at Evangelical Seminary in Myerstown for 34 years, from 1979 until retiring in 2013 as Distinguished Professor of Old Testament."

Contrast that, with Israel Finkelstein, et al. The problem is that we now place equal weight on both claims, but from their background: Isn´t Finkelstein the "heavy-weight", here? Huldra (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is Dorsey. The source he gives is this book but I can't see the relevant page (probably 439). Zero^talk 01:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Was there more than one Lebonah? The Avi Yonah book (you have it, if not let me know) identifies Lebonah as "Kh. el Birnata? 137/116" which is far away. Zero^talk 01:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since Lebonah was only mentioned one place in the Bible --> probably only one place (And no, I do not have the Avi Yonah-book) And please give me the page-no. in the Aharoni-ref? I don´t have the book, but the preview is different from each country, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Avi-Yonah does not give a biblical reference, just the Onomasticon. So it seems irrelevant here. There is also "Libona" identified as "el Lubban" which can cause confusion but it too is a distant place (241/137). Aharoni page is 439 according to the index. Zero^talk 00:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at the Samaria survey book, vol 2 pages 621 (Site 17-16/32/01, 1734/1626) and 616 (Lubban Sharqiya). These two locations are given as options for the site of Lubanah. The first place is about 1.6km to the south and 0.5km to the east of the village. Actually just east of Ma'ale Levona. Zero^talk 01:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]