Talk:Deir es-Sultan

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Requested move 11 November 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Deir es-Sultan.Original proposal is opposed Winged Blades^Godric 10:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deir Es-Sultan → Monastery of the Sultan – Considering WP:Consistency for WP:Articletitles of Christian sites of this type (c.f. Template:Old City (Jerusalem)). As for the article text, "El" linguistic article is more associated with Egyptian Arabic, whle this site is in a Levantine Arabic area (c.f. Al-Aqsa Mosque), notwithstanding that the latter's translitterations ("Al-") are arguably more widely accepted in Western context. But we typically give preference for English name sources if available, despite if native Arabic naming is widespread. See also: http://www.mafhoum.com/press3/96S23.htm , http://copticocc.org/site/?p=51343&lang=en , http://www.arabwestreport.info/en/locations/monastery-sultan-jerusalem-israel , http://www.melekuse.org/index.php/70-home/nature/159-get-ready-to-talk Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 00:39, 19 November 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 07:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OpposeThis is the recognized name of the place. Translation can appear in parentheses, but nobody ever calls it Monastery of the Sultan and it is not known anywhere by that name, so moving it does not make sense.--Geewhiz (talk) 10:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No opinion on the move request itself, but if it does stay at the current title, it should be changed to Deir es-Sultan per the usual Arabic naming conventions (e.g. Daliyat al-Karmel, Jisr az-Zarqa etc). Number 5 7 13:36, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would support that as an improved second option. Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:43, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Deir es-Sultan as above, but this is the common name of the place. We don't just translate for the sake of it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:29, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

What IS Deir es-Sultan? Useless article, as it offers no definition.[edit]

Is it the partially raised area with the Ethiopian monks' huts in the eastern and south-eastern part of the former Crusader cloister of the Augustines? Is it the entire former cloister, including the open area? The photo shows the western part of the cloister's open area. Does it include the two chapels, which lead down to the parvis, currently tended to by the Ethiopians and disputed by the Copts? One is slightly below the cloister level, the other below that, at parvis level.

No definition, which makes the article practically useless. Arminden (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ethiopian ownership[edit]

The Ethiopian church believes they have had a monastery in Jerusalem -- presumably at Deir es-Sultan -- since ancient times, perhaps as early as the time of their conversion in the 4th century; however, the earliest attested record of their monastery was the grant of Saladin in 1189 of many sites to the Ethiopians for their use. (Tadesse Tamrat, Church and State in Ethiopia, 1270-1527 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1972), p.58; citing E. Cerulli, Etiopi in Palestina, i (1943), pp. 33-37) There have since been numerous mentions of their monastery over the following centuries. Nonetheless, Ethiopian possession of Deir es-Sultan has been a contentious issue between them & other Christian groups, which has not been helped by the loss of the records of the community in the mid-19th century. -- llywrch (talk) 17:13, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]