Talk:Worship of heavenly bodies

Article title

article should probably reside at astrolatry, which is the unambiguous term. I had a hard time figuring out what "astro-theology" is supposed to mean, as the term is thrown around in various and partly confused contexts of the "religion vs science" debate in the 18th century. --dab (𒁳) 12:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Problematic, as it is not a neutral term. Skyerise (talk) 01:36, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Manly P. Hall

Can someone familiar with his work cite this? Or on second thought, wasn't he just a great compiler of such details? Has the comparison been drawn by others? Do we even need that paragraph? Skyerise (talk) 15:15, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Planetary magic

A section should be added about the relationship with the planetary magic of Hermetic Qabala, along with other systems (eg. John Dee, other non-qabalistic systems of planetary magic). Thompson's book in Further reading addresses this, though mostly from the POV of James Lees so other sources would be needed. Iirc, Dennings & Phillips also covered this in their ogdoadic system. Skyerise (talk) 13:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Technical Writing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 October 2023 and 24 October 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dp20032003 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Dp20032003 (talk) 14:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

"Astrotheology"

It seems that the academic use of "astrotheology" is unrelated to the way it is used here, as the worship of the stars (individually or together as the night sky), the planets, and other heavenly bodies as deities, or the association of deities with heavenly bodies. It is allegedly a WP:NPOV version of astrolatry, which now redirects here. However the actual use of this term in academic literature, including literature included on the page, seems to be very different, see:

• "Astrotheology". The Routledge Companion to Modern Christian Thought. Routledge. 2013-10-28. doi:10.4324/9780203387856-78. ISBN 978-0-203-38785-6.
• Peters, Ted F.; Hewlett, Martinez; Moritz, Joshua M.; Russell, Robert John (2018-07-12). Astrotheology. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock Publishers. ISBN 978-1-5326-0639-7.
• Losch, Andreas (2016-05-05). "Astrotheology: on exoplanets, Christian concerns, and human hopes". Zygon. 51 (2). Wiley: 405–413. doi:10.1111/zygo.12252. ISSN 0591-2385.
• Pryor, Adam (2018). "It's a great big universe: Astrobiology and future trends for an astrotheology". Dialog. 57 (1). Wiley: 5–11. doi:10.1111/dial.12370. ISSN 0012-2033.
• Harrison, Albert A. (2014-01-02). "Astrotheology and Spaceflight: Prophecy, Transcendence and Salvation on the High Frontier". Theology and Science. 12 (1). Informa UK Limited: 30–48. doi:10.1080/14746700.2013.868118. ISSN 1474-6700.
• Pieterse, A.C. (2021-12-15). "Astrotheology: A proactive contextualization of novelty within space exploration". Acta Theologica. 41 (2): 156–175. doi:10.4314/actat.v41i2.. ISSN 2309-9089. Retrieved 2023-11-15. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help)
• Chon-Torres, Octavio A.; Szocik, Konrad (2021-12-15). "A brief epistemological discussion of astrotheology in the light of astrobiology". International Journal of Astrobiology. 21 (1). Cambridge University Press (CUP): 1–8. doi:10.1017/s1473550421000367. ISSN 1473-5504.
• Arnould, Jacques (2018-10-02). "Astrotheology, Astroethics, and the New Challenges". Theology and Science. 16 (4). Informa UK Limited: 380–381. doi:10.1080/14746700.2018.1522730. ISSN 1474-6700.
• Waltemathe, Michael (2017-09-12). A match made for heaven. Astrosociological and astrotheological aspects of spaceflight and religion. Reston, Virginia: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics. doi:10.2514/6.2017-5157.

...and plenty of others, I found all of these just doing a quick search for "astrotheology" on Google Scholar. These all discuss the intersections of modern spaceflight and theology "to identify elements of religion and myth in discussions of space science and to prepare people for possible future developments" as Harrison puts it. It is not a term for "the worship of stars" or other heavenly bodies. The term appears to refer to a much narrower idea which really only encompasses what is covered here at Astrotheology#Connections with other fields. Indeed, the earliest use of the term is by William Derham, who argued the "demonstration of sacred truths" from "a survey of heavenly bodies" according to the original version of the page. The idea that astrotheology refers to the worship of astral bodies seems to originate with an unreliable source: Irvin, Jan; Rutajit, Andrew (2006-01-01). Astrotheology and Shamanism. ISBN 978-1-58509-107-2. This books argues that Christianity is a pagan cult originally based on star-worship and the use of psychedelics, and knowledge of these hidden roots are "concealed behind a campaign to prohibit access to entheogenic sacraments through a Pharmacratic Inquisition."

It seems that Astrotheology was previously merged into Astrolatry by @Klbrain in 2018, see here. @Liz appears to have moved Astrolatry to Astrotheology under the presumption that "astrolatry" does not reflect a WP:NPOV.

@Liz: why is "astrolatry" not neutral? It seems to be used widely and there's a number of people who use it as a self-descriptor. Furthermore, it seems this alternative is not an improvement. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I've done a WP:BOLD move and moved Astrotheology to Worship of heavenly bodies. This is a more general title which retains the WP:NPOV of "Astrotheology" while avoiding the issue of how this word is actually used in practically all scholarship today -- a way that is decidedly different and perhaps unrelated to Derham's 18th century coinage. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

For interested parties: I have been re-writing the Astrotheology page from scratch to conform with WP:RSs. I have yet to find any source for the claim that "astrotheology" as a word means the worship of heavenly bodies -- it seems the only places using this definition are crank conspiracy websites, Christian apologist publications responding to said conspiracy websites, and the fringe mythicist Richard Carrier. For example:

• What is astrotheology?
• Please No More Astrotheology
• Astrotheology and celestial origins
• Astrotheology of the ancients
• What is your response to Astro-theology?

...and plenty of others, but still no RS for this usage.Webster's gives Astrotheology as "Theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies", and the OED gives "that part of theology which may be deduced from the study of the stars; a religious system founded upon the observation of the heavens", both of which are subtely but acutely different from the usage initially given. Both accord with Derham who talks very little of pre-Christian belief. In regards to WP:NPOV: I don't think "astrotheology" is neutral as some think it to be, as today "theology" generally encompasses the Abrahamic faiths and it is not really appropriate to apply it to, e.g. the Lakota or pole-star worship or what have you. Tryin to make a change :-/ 10:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I moved this article in 2021 based on a CSD tagged move request by Skyerise. I didn't realize that a previous article under this page title had already been deleted (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Astrotheology). And now there is a new article at this title. Skyerise would like to move this article again to Astral religion and I asked that the subject be brought up here since there has been a difference of opinion on the article title in the past. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:24, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on "Astral religion" vs. "Worship of heavenly bodies", personally. A quick search of scholarly literature shows both, the former might be less clunky. Tryin to make a change :-/ 05:12, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

On second thought, note Brill's Religion Past and Present, which states that "astral religion" is the "cultic worship of heavenly bodies or deities associated with them." This implies that "worship of heavenly bodies" is a more general term which can encompass things outside of organized cults. Tryin to make a change :-/ 06:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

There are no examples in the article which are practiced outside of such organized groups, nor are there likely to be since sources would not cover an individual's idiosyncratic religious practice. Skyerise (talk) 12:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 15 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against the original rationale, evidence has been provided for the "worship of heavenly bodies" as a widely used term, independent of "astral religion". This negates the primary move rationale. The discussion suggests that the worship of heavenly bodies is a wider phenomenon than astral religion, and as such the current title is appropriate. (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 15:17, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

---

Worship of heavenly bodies → Astral religion – the correct term for this is "astral religion", the current title is ad-hoc and made up by an editor who failed to follow process and open a proper move request. Skyerise (talk) 12:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 11:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for "astral religion" being the "correct term"? Also, WP:BOLD moves are not "failing to follow process" -- it is fix[ing] it yourself instead of just talking about it. That is irrelevant, though. Tryin to make a change :-/ 12:43, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

You provided a reference above (Religion Past and Present). All astral religions are astral cults, a technical term which does not equate to the popular meaning of the word "cult". Skyerise (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

[A]stral religions are astral cults but not all worship of heavenly bodies can properly be called cultic (which as you note is not the same as the popular meaning of the word "cult" but a technical term that does not encompass the entirety of religious phenomena.) As I noted about the source, it implies that the worship of heavenly bodies is the wider phenomenon being discussed. You know, looking at the page, this page borders on WP:SYNTH or even WP:OR -- I don't actually think that there is a "proper name" to be discussed here since it is mostly pieced together mentions of star and planet worship in various religions rather than something that is studied as a phenomenon in its own right. Tryin to make a change :-/ 18:04, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Astral religion or astral cult are the terms most widely used in the archeological and anthropological literature. The term applies to every single one of the worldwide examples described in the article. Nobody uses "worship of heavenly bodies" - which itself shows a bias and "heavenly" should be replaced with "astronomical" in any case. Clearly I'll have to go to the relevant projects to find knowledgable editors in the field. Skyerise (talk) 11:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support I'm sort of convinced on the evidence presented above, and otherwise most other articles refer to things in space as astronomical objects, and the name of this article should be consistent with that usage. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:23, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

"Worship of heavenly bodies" is widely used as such. Srnec (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Yup, in definitions of "astral religion", primarily. Skyerise (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

No. This surprised me too. Srnec (talk) 01:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, despite claims to the contrary Worship of heavenly bodies is not an ad hoc coining but something I came across scouring scholarly literature for astrotheology. Tryin to make a change :-/ 13:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose, on the grounds that "Astral religion" sounds like a more specific case of a general phenomenon of worship of heavenly bodies. BD2412 T 02:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, per User:BD2412 and given that I was the one who made the original move. The page was originally at "Astrotheology" (which I have rewritten with reliable sources) and "Worship of heavenly bodies" was the most general and value-neutral term I could find that was present in the scholarly literature since User:Skyerise took issue with the first page name "Astrolatry" on WP:NPOV grounds (which I'll concede to, though I'm not personally convinced.) Tryin to make a change :-/ 07:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

  'Astrolatry' is a Christian term which implies that such worship is a form of idolatry and therefore forbidden. How could that possibly be WP:NPOV? Skyerise (talk) 11:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

  I literally said I conceded this. What's the point of trying to argue about it? Tryin to make a change :-/ 13:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Speaking of Giordano Bruno

I included the next sourced information in the article:

The first philosopher and theologian to seriously advocate for life in other planets was [[Giordano Bruno]], who was burned alive for heresy due to this challenging the uniqueness of the Pope as God's sole representative.<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Giordano-Bruno/ ''Giordano Bruno'' on Britannica]</ref><ref>[The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets  The Torture and Murder of Giordano Bruno For Publishing the Universe Is Infinite and There is Life on Other Planets] by R. Gabriel Joseph in Cosmology.com</ref>

However, the user User:Skyerise (who previously accused me of editing just to "promote Islam", which as you can see, is patently false), keeps reverting the adding of information. The whole paragraph does not speak directly of astrolatry, but rather of changing philosophical and epistemological changes in the cosmology of western man, dethroning the geocentric view and thus the view of stars and planets as simple brilliant dots in the night sky. This is relevant, Giordano Bruno was the immediate predecessor of Gallileo and had a much more developed non-geocentric cosmology. So either add the info, or delete the whole section of "modern views" for """"not being about worship"""" Worship_of_heavenly_bodies#16th_century. 200.127.211.12 (talk) 03:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Probably belongs under the Astrotheology heading, if not the Astrotheology page itself. wound theology◈ 03:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with user Wound theology. This article is about the worship of heavenly bodies as deities. The material which wasn't about that didn't belong here either, and I've removed it. Please don't add anything unless it is about cultures or religions in which astronomical bodies are worshipped. It's just plain common sense based on the title! Skyerise (talk) 03:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Belongs as in "The whole section"? Because there is no reason all the others would be mentioned (Galilleo, Copernicus, and so forth) and not Giordano Bruno. Well, anyways, the whole part was deleted from here now... yay? ... I added relevant information to *a section which already spoke of that very topic*. You can't just delete the sourced contributions of tens of wikipedians just like that. You don't own this page and your personal opinion isn't an automatic consensus to treat it as your personal property. You need to discuss here *first* (as became evident when your move request failed). Then you complain about process on users that "just do stuff". You are the one violating it... --200.127.211.12 (talk) 03:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I wrote the article. Then the article was split. Material that should have been moved to Astrotheology somehow didn't get moved. And yes, I can remove it - I wrote it. And even if I hadn't, it's a general rule on Wikipedia that offtopic material not only may, but should be removed from an article. Skyerise (talk) 03:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

"I created/wrote the majority of this article." (implying some kind of right or status exists because of that) is listed as an example statement at WP:OWNBEHAVIOR. DefaultFree (talk) 03:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@DefaultFree: There are also rules against stalking and harassment, which you are now engaged in. The material was offtopic, left from when the other editor commenting (Wound theology) moved and split the article in December. Skyerise (talk) 03:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Who harassed you? It doesn't matter how much or how little you wrote; also this was originally about removing things you didn't wrote (or claim to write, there are many edits which aren't yours at all.) - Furthermore, by writing in wikipedia, you abide by the CC license, as such you don't have copyright to the extent of censoring the material by "removing" contributions. I'm pinging @Polyamorph:, @Srnec:, @BD2412:, @Liz: as other editors interested in the article, and who may believe the original sections about the context and scholarship (5000 deleted characters) are relevant, and not only the list of religions (which is the only parts you left, adding even more to your dear thelema even though arguably is not an actual religion nor does it worship heavenly bodies). 200.127.211.12 (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, there you go. You are not assuming good faith. Reliable source say that Thelema is a religion (which is in no way dear to me, I am an historian interested in new religious movements) and the definition at the beginning of the article (based on sources) includes worship of the whole sky. Skyerise (talk) 03:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

" You can't just delete the sourced contributions of tens of wikipedians just like that. " Correction; it is even recommanded to remove false information. This is not a forum where we just exchange ideas for the sake of it. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Life on other planets has nothing to do with worship of heavenly bodies. Those who worship heavenly bodies usually believed the planets themselves are endowed with life-force since people back then lacked a proper understanding how they could move if they were mere stones. As stated above, it is something for Astrotheology. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Islam section

The Islam section is (once again) in a pretty bad condition and mostly consists of synthesis of material to further the author's own opinion. The sources hadrly speak about the veneration of heavenly bodies at all. There are sources, such as "The Arabic Influences on Early Modern Occult Philosophy" elaborating on the notion of veneration of the Classical planets and their cultural influences. Of course, they do not "worship" them in the direct sense, but did attribute seven planetary spirits to them. The "seven jinn king" in the jinn article may also fall rather into this article, since the seven planets are usually not "jinn" but "ruhaniyya" and inspired by the Hellenistic idea of living planets. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle: I would appreciate your additions. That sounds like just the type of material that section needs. That part of the article is quite old, predating my attention to the article and I simply haven't had the bandwidth or existing knowledge of the sources to improve it. Skyerise (talk) 13:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your encouraging words. When I have the time and leisure, I will probably do it. However, currently I do not feel like going through these sources again. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 23:33, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@VenusFeuerFalle: Thankfully, there is no deadline. Skyerise (talk) 23:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, however, misinformation bugs me since it can easily spread across the globe as a freely accessable online encyclopedia. Yet, this is just a case of missing information not misinformation. Gladly, there are enough Wikipedians who do great work on keeping Wikipedia as clean as possible and I do thank you for keeping an eye on this article as well. Religion-related articles are unfortunately prone to propaganda and misinterpretation of sources. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 00:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, I recently found that a historical Tibetan lama was claimed as an ancestor of the 6th Dalai Lama. It's now in a couple tour guides that believed Wikipedia. But when I looked into the details, the actual ancestor of the 6th was the subject's brother. Ooops. Skyerise (talk) 09:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

This is actually disappointing to read, but good to know. I want to warn friends taking a tour if they mention the misconception.

I am convinved that Wikipedia does more good than harm, but sometimes it spreads misinformation. Don't get me started about the many misconceptions I see even among some academic circles about Islamic angels and jinn (But it got better over the years by now). VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)