Template:Did you know nominations/Safad El Battikh, Kafra, Lebanon and Ayta al-Jabal

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 03:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

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Safad El Battikh, Kafra, Lebanon and Ayta al-Jabal

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Map of the area, ca 1880s
Map of the area, ca 1880s

Created by Huldra (talk). Self-nominated at 20:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC).

  • I'll be reviewing these shortly, inşallah. Afraid I think the map is not interesting enough though. QPQ? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:52, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
We can think more about the hook later but for now what do you think about linking "Ottoman" to Ottoman archives?Chidgk1 (talk) 13:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
I am having trouble finding the villages in the book e.g. at https://books.google.com.tr/books?redir_esc=y&hl=tr&id=wqULAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Kafra so might the names be transliterated differently? Not really useful for DYK as behind a login but is it worth me logging on to https://katalog.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/ to try and find the document? I know a little Turkish but I don't know the Ottoman language so would it be too difficult or do you know exactly what I would search for? Chidgk1 (talk) 13:15, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Checked all articles new enough and long enough, Earwig found no copyvio Chidgk1 (talk) 13:27, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
You have put "area" in infobox but I could not find cite. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:41, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Notified Huldra that the ball is now in her court Chidgk1 (talk) 14:50, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
Inserting the blue question mark as the standard indicator that a DYK review is in progress. Flibirigit (talk) 23:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
  • User:Chidgk1 Thank you for your comments! I'm sorry, but forgot the QPQ; will start on it as soon as I have answered here.
  • As for the HA-book (Hütteroth and Abdulfattah-book =1596 info): it is in English; and the identification is done via grid-numbers; for Kafra 183/286 Palestine grid; apparently it was called Kfur Tibnin in 1596; ie you have to search for the 1596 name, not the present name. (I have the tables; and the key, on my computer, and can send it to you, if you like?) (I am afraid old history like this is very rarely available on the net; at least not in this area). (Also; "Kfur Tibnin" has dots over the "U" and the second "I"; search does not work for me on books.google.)
  • It would be great to have a link directly to the original Defter, if they are online? I could give you the defter-number? But I suspect that will not be easy if you are not pretty confident in Turkish...and useless if that Safad-defter is not online.
  • The "area" in infobox is given in the localiban-ref, same for elevation; I guess I should add them as a ref? Now it is only linked under "External links",
  • And I would love to have a better picture; I don't have high hopes though; few of these villages have pictures uploaded of them. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Reviewing Svante Odén Huldra (talk) 22:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes please make localiban a ref for area. I managed to log in so please could you put the defter number in a footnote to the article (if you don't know how to do a footnote put it here and I will do) so I can search - thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 06:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
User:Chidgk1: It is defter no 72 (="the number which they bear in the Tapu ve Kadastro Arsivi in Ankara"); located in Ankara. According to HA (Hütteroth and Abdulfattah), p. 4, it is from 1596/97 CE (=1005 H), but according to Rhode (citing Bernard Lewis) p. 6 it is from 1548/9 CE (=955AH), cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I could not find the document under defter number 72 (could be my incompetence). But searching for keyword Safed (presumably the republican spelling/transliteration) with a date of 1005H shows 3 documents including:

Belge Özeti : Safed livasının kanunnamesiyle nüfus ve hasılatını ve tımarlarını ve evkafını havi mufassal tahrir defteri.

Yer Bilgisi : 686 -

Belge Tarihi : H-29-12-1005

Kurum : TT.d...

I cannot read Ottoman so I don't know if that is the right one, but if you think it might be I guess if we mention it in a footnote then hopefully an expert would be able to confirm or deny in future? It is a bit ridiculous that only Turkish nationals can log in - do you know a suitable Turkish academic or if not I will try and find one. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I am sorry, I don't know any Turkish academics. There are 6-700 references to the HA 1596 defter (a list here: User:Huldra/HA) on en.wp; it would be absolutely great if we one day could link directly to the original defter! If/when that day comes; I would go through User:Huldra/HA and link them all....Huldra (talk) 20:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Also; I see that the Facebook page of Safad El Battikh has a lot of pictures (from the Church, mostly). I am not on facebook, but we could possibly reach out to them for a picture? Huldra (talk) 22:06, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Anyway my questions about primary source are a bit of a digression. Could you put 3 search links here to show me the info in the secondary source? Or explain how to go to the page. Or just put quotes if you have the book on paper and I will take them on trust. Chidgk1 (talk) 07:42, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, there really is no way to google-link this; you have to have the tables! And the "key". Which I will gladly send to you. Eg; for Safad El Battikh, it says (on p 182):
1)Z68 2)Q 3) Safad al-Battih 4) (Arab name) 5)190/289 6)Pal.100 7)+ 8)10/2 11)12 13)25% 14)1300 15)420 20)380 27)80 28)20 36)2200
From the "key", we known that the 5) number; ie 190/289 is the 6) grid number. (I could also send you the map, showing you that that is the position of Safad El Battikh). 8) is number of Muslim households/batchelors; 14) taxes paid for wheat, er, etc. Similar for the other places, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:00, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
But https://books.google.com.tr/books?redir_esc=y&id=wqULAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=al-Battih goes to a different village not Safad - am I searching the wrong book or what am I misunderstanding? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:52, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
That is a Turkish link; it doesn't give me anything. However, when I search for https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=wqULAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=al-Battih I come to p.120, Zakariyya al-Battih, or Az-Zakariyya, Huldra (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
yes me too. So how do we link to the page with "Safad al-Battih" please? Chidgk1 (talk) 08:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
The short answer: we cannot. The only way to verify this, is reading the tables (which I will gladly send to you, if you give me your email). There never was a rule about everything (or the hook) in a DYK must be available online; this one such case. Huldra (talk) 20:40, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I understand your point that the details cannot be confirmed without the table and I am happy to take your word on that (although if you send the key via my email it would be interesting). But my point is that as the book is searchable surely I should be able to find the page by searching for "Safad al-Battih" like I can search for other things in the book?

I could not find a way to mail you from Wikipedia. You could tick "Allow other users to email me" in your settings and let me know so I can send my address without knowing yours or putting my address here for everyone to see. Then if you don't want to give your main address you could send pics of the 3 pages with these villages from a temp email. Alternatively write to https://www.qudswiki.org/?query=Special:EmailUser/Chidgk1 and I will give you my email address so you can attach stuff.

Once I can see at least one of the village pages I will hopefully be able to figure out my misunderstanding and write a footnote for others (if you like I can also send a few random page screenshots from the primary source to see if you might be able to read the Ottoman to some extent). Chidgk1 (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

User:Chidgk1 I have sent you my email-address. I don't know why the search-function works so badly, but most of the names have bars/dots etc; those letters are not in my alphabet, so I cannot search the exact name. But even when I can; the search-function rarely works (for me), Huldra (talk) 20:16, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for sending pages - now I understand what you are saying and my searching problem - Hutteroth uses a transcription system I don't understand. So I think the solution is to put the Ottoman name in the article in the original script so even though I don't know Ottoman or Arabic I (and others in future hopefully for primary source too) can just cut and paste to search online like this https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&hl=tr&id=wqULAAAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%B7%D9%8A%D8%AE . This was easy for me to do for one article because it is the same as the modern name so I just cut and pasted. Could you put the Ottoman names in the other 2?
User:Chidgk1 Well, I don't speak/write Arabic or Turkish, I have no idea as to how to write it, trying a "copy and paste" for Kafra I get ".:_r.;....;." so sorry; I cannot manage that, Huldra (talk) 20:11, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
Oh sorry I assumed you did. Anyway I hereby approve this DYK as everything looks fine. Chidgk1 (talk) 10:46, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Oh hang on still waiting QPQ - everything else fine
Lol, User:Chidgk1: you are not the first to make that mistake :) Anyway, my QPQ: Template:Did you know nominations/Svante Odén, Huldra (talk) 20:18, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Removed blue question mark above and added green tick to show I have finished and everything ok — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chidgk1 (talk • contribs) 05:54, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Huldra, Chidgk1, the rule for QPQs is that one review must be supplied for each nominated article (see WP:DYKSG#H4 for details). Huldra will need to supply two more QPQ reviews before this nomination can achieve final passage. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
So that must mean I get 3 credits - yay! Chidgk1 (talk) 16:04, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, I had no idea; I will look for 2 other DYK-candidates now, but this make take a few days. (The review here took 14 days); hope you have patience! Huldra (talk) 20:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

2nd QPQ done: Template:Did you know nominations/Herma Albertson Baggley
@BlueMoonset: and @Huldra: I'll donate the 3rd qpq to help get this hook promoted:
Template:Did you know nominations/Day of Reckoning (2016 film) BuySomeApples (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Whaw! Thank you, @BuySomeApples:! Huldra (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
Chidgk1, if everything meets your satisfaction, please add a new tick below. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:45, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
Chidgk1 (talk) 07:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
@Chidgk1 and Huldra: I'm sorry, but I'm a little lost—it seems like any given region in the Ottoman empire would be mentioned in its tax records. I could be wrong, but what makes the hook—hooky? Is there an irregularity in that these are mentioned that I'm missing? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 01:40, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
User:Theleekycauldron, Huh? I think the fact that all three were noted as inhabitated villages 500+ years ago is notable. (Certainly, the village I grew up in wasn't inhabited then; it first became inhabited in the 19th century), Huldra (talk) 20:12, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
User:Theleekycauldron Most main page readers will not know about the Ottoman tax records beforehand - I am still happy with the hook Chidgk1 (talk) 06:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
@Chidgk1 and Huldra: all right, fair enough. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 06:52, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Given the overlap between articles, two of the three are well short of the original prose requirements. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

User:Nikkimaria; with the very same sources, it is sort of difficult to get a very varied prose. I am not conserned about getting 3 DYK-credits (I'm fine with 1, or even 0); but I do think it is noteable that three villages (close to each other) all seem to have been contiously inhabited for at least 500+ years, Huldra (talk) 20:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Nikkimaria, even if two of the three are short of the prose requirement, one is not, and that one is eligible to run if the other hook issue is resolved. The first written should be eligible for a bold link, and the other two could be non-bold links. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
True. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Nikkimaria, does it matter which one is bolded, or does it have to be the first written? The three articles were started on July 1, 2, and 3, and Huldra has left the first named (Safad El Battikh) bolded in ALT3 (the bolding is the only difference between it and ALT2), though technically is was the third written, on July 3; Kafra, Lebanon was the first written, on July 1. If we need to adjust the bolding (in which case perhaps the bold article should be listed first, though I'm happy to go with Huldra's order preference, if she'd prefer the status quo), that can be done. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
To my understanding the rule is simply that the text can only be claimed once; it doesn't matter in which one. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:28, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, Nikkimaria. We'll go with Huldra's ALT3 then. Chidgk1, can I ask you to please take a look at ALT3, and if you're prepared to approve it, please do so with a tick below here, which will supersede the other icons. As a general rule, hooks should not be ticked when up top, because the bots only look for the last (lowest) icon in the template, and takes it as the current status of the nomination. Thank you very much. (I have removed the DYKmake templates for the two no-longer-bold articles in ALT3, and struck ALT1 and ALT2 because both bold all three articles.) BlueMoonset (talk) 23:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Chidgk1 (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

ALT3 to T:DYK/P2 without image
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