Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slavic Americans (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:19, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Slavic Americans[edit]

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WP:OR/WP:SYNTH, largely WP:UNSOURCED WP:CROSSCAT of language family – Slavic languages – and a couple of hand-picked nationalities and ethnicities which are overgeneralised to be all "Slavic", but that just isn't correct. Even if we discount the millions of non-Slavic people living in each of these countries (Germans, Turks, Albanians, Hungarians, Romanians, Romani, Aromanians, Italians, Balts, Finno-Ugric, Turkic and Mongolic folks etc. etc. etc.), lots of people are from mixed marriages/backgrounds. A group like Texan Silesians has a significant German influence. We can't just ignore that and lump them all together as if they are all entirely 100% "Slavic". They're not.

The adjoining map File:Slavic ancestry in the USA and Canada.png is also based on original research from incompatible aggregated data from 1990 and 2016, whereby it is unclear how calculations have even been made (one link is dead, the other doesn't directly show the data, so any fact-checker needs to dig up all the data themselves), let alone whether they are correct. Per c:Commons:Evidence-based mapping#English Wikipedia precedents, B. Maps that synthesise data from multiple sources in order to reach a conclusion not found in any source, or bring together data from multiple sources that are not compatible (e.g. population data in which children were only included in some sources), commit en:WP:SYNTH. Therefore, such maps may be removed from English Wikipedia, and any templates which embed such maps may be deleted.

We just can't mix up language family and nationality/ethnicity like this. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries for a long list of precedents. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Language and United States of America. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:45, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Poland, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Ukraine, and Yugoslavia. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:08, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - agree with the nom on the OR/WP:SYN aspect, also it's entirely unclear what the article is supposed to be (a list, or an actual article with no prose in it yet?) but it also seems to violate WP:NOTSTATS in its current form. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:36, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Yet another ill-conceived WP:SYNTH combination of language family and anything else. No nontrivial prose content. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 01:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – This is a plausible search term, so disambiguation might be appropriate. Note to the nominator - don't forget about similar "Baltic <topic>" crosscats. –Vipz (talk) 07:25, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vipz That is a good point. Baltic Americans was turned into a disambiguation page (DP) back in 2009. It had contents similar to this page before then. We might turn it into disambiguation page instead? But it will still remain arbitrary, just like Baltic Americans says Estonian Americans (depending on definition); Finnish Americans (depending on definition). Personally, I have never seen anyone defining the Finns as "Baltic". Even the Estonians are a bit arbitrary because most Estonians speak, well, the Estonian language or Russian language, neither of which is "Baltic". The only reason to call Estonians "Baltic" is because of the common term Baltic states that Estonia is usually lumped in with (often at their own discontent).
So a reason to oppose turning it into a DP is that we will end up with the same (depending on definition) stuff, like Macedonian Americans (depending on definition). Even c. 25% of inhabitants of North Macedonia are ethnic Albanians (Albanians in North Macedonia), apparently they don't count: Macedonian Americans (Macedonian: Македонски Американци, romanized: Makedonski Amerikanci) are Americans of ethnic [[Macedonians (ethnic group)|Macedonian]] heritage. On the other hand, Category:Macedonian American's parent Category:Macedonian diaspora is in:
- Category:Ethnic Macedonian people, part of the ethnicity-based Category:People by ethnicity tree;
- Category:Diasporas by country of origin, part of the country-based Category:People by country tree;
- Category:Macedonian people, part of the nationality-based Category:People by nationality tree.
So what are we even talking about when we say "Macedonian Americans"? Macedonians by ethnicity, Macedonians by (previous) residence, or Macedonians by nationality? Well, that is (depending on definition). Only "ethnic Macedonian Americans" could arguably be called "Slavic Americans", and even that is an oversimplification. Turning this article into a DP won't solve the WP:CROSSCAT WP:OR/WP:SYNTH problems. We could equally create a DP for Germanic Americans and then populate it with lots of pages ranging Icelandic Americans to Luxembourgish Americans, but I would find that an equally bad idea. Because the language family that the native languages of most speakers in a given country belong to is just WP:NONDEFINING and WP:TRIVIAL, as the "Turkic", "Germanic", "Celtic" and even some earlier "Slavic" precedents show. (E.g. we would have to ignore that c. 16% of Luxembourgers have Portuguese as their native language these days. Should we discount every single Portuguese Luxembourger and keep claiming all Luxembourgers are "Germanic" just to maintain this bad generalisation? No.). A better idea might be to also Delete Baltic Americans rather than to follow its example. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:44, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The map including both Canada and the US is at odds with the text that seems to be US-only. At best, listify at something like list of Americans of Slavic origin and remove the excess WP:SYNTH. There's probably scholarly works that cover the topic, but this hodgepodge of statistics deserves some form of WP:TNT as is. (This reminds me of various excessive bilateral relations and lists of airports articles - some potential as taken way too far by overzealous editors.) --Joy (talk) 14:36, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Though a disambiguation could be entertained, but this looks WP:OR. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 05:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation. Make a simple list like Baltic Americans. Suitskvarts (talk) 19:16, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.